tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Jun 29 14:58:57 2000

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Re: ja'/jatlh

ghunchu'wI':
> I wouldn't say either of those. I'd say {qama' vIja'} and be done with it.

"I told/tell/will tell the prisoner" 

SuStel:
: Personally, I think there's a difference here.  /ja'/ has a narrower
: meaning: the subject is making statements or commands at the object.
: /jatlh/ is the general verb where the subject articulates just about
: anything with speech.
:   [snip]
: ja'
: tell, report

The difference is also objective.  As Okrand uses it, the object of {ja'} is
the person (or thing) spoken to:

  qaja'pu' HIqaghQo' = HIqaghQo' qaja'pu' 
  I told you not to interrupt me. TKD

  yIja'Qo' 
  Don't tell him! TKD

  yIja''egh 
  Tell yourself! TKD

  qaja' 
  I tell you. TKD

  nuja'rup 
  They are prepared to tell us. TKD

  HIja'neS 
  Do me the honor of telling me. TKD

  choja'chugh 
  if you tell me. TKD

  nuja' tlhIngan wIch ja'wI'pu' 
  According to Klingon legend...  S8
  [lit. "Klingon legend-tellers tell us..."]

See also the verb {ja'chuq} "discuss, confer":

  "The verb is made up of {ja'} 'tell', {-chuq} 'each other'; thus,
   confer is 'tell each other'." (TKD p65)

: jatlh
: speak, say

OTOH, the object of {jatlh} is that which is spoken; that is, when you're not
using the "prefix trick".  Okrand discussed {jatlh} in some detail on
startrek.klingon (June 1997):

    "The object of {jatlh} 'speak' is that which is spoken. Thus, it's
  OK to say speak a language, for example {tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh} 'you
  speak Klingon'. But it's also OK to say speak an address, speak a
  lecture, for example {SoQ Dajatlh} 'you speak an address' or, more
  colloquially, 'you deliver an address' or 'you make a speech'. To
  say simply {jatlh} 'he/she speaks' implies 'he/she speaks it', where
  it is a language or a lecture or whatever. 
    "The indirect object of {jatlh}, when expressed, is the hearer/
  listener.  Thus {qama'pu'vaD tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh} 'you speak Klingon
  to the prisoners', {qama'pu'vaD SoQ Dajatlh} 'you make a speech to the
  prisoners'. When the indirect object (in this case, the hearer) is
  first or second person, the pronominal prefix which normally indicates
  first or second person object may be used. There are other examples of
  this sort of thing with other verbs. ... Since the object of {jatlh}
  is that which is spoken, and since you or I or we cannot be spoken
  (and therefore cannot be the object of the verb), if the verb is used
  with a pronominal prefix indicating a first- or second-person object,
  that first or second person is the indirect object. Which is a not very
  elegant way of saying that {qajatlh} means 'I speak to you' or, more
  literally, perhaps 'I speak it to you', where 'it' is a language or a
  speech or whatever: {qajatlh} 'I speak to you', {Sajatlh} 'I speak to
  you [plural]', {chojatlh} 'you speak to me', {tlhIngan Hol qajatlh} 'I
  speak Klingon to you'. 
    "There's another wrinkle to this. The verb {jatlh} can also be used
  when giving direct quotations: {tlhIngan jIH jatlh} 'he/she says, "I am
  a Klingon",' {jatlh tlhIngan jIH} 'he/she says, "I am a Klingon".' ...
  If the speaker is first or second person, the pronominal prefix
  indicating 'no object' is used: {tlhIngan jIH jIjatlh} 'I say, "I am a
  Klingon",' {tlhIngan jIH bIjatlh} 'you say, "I am a Klingon".' 
    "There are instances where the pronominal prefix marks a big
  distinction in meaning: {tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh} 'you speak Klingon' [vs.]
  {tlhIngan Hol bIjatlh} 'you say, "Klingon language"' [that is 'you say
  the phrase "Klingon language"']." 

Examples from canon:

  tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh'a'?
  Do you speak Klingon?  TKD/CK

  'avwI'vaD jatlh qama' jIghung.
  A prisoner says to the guard, "I am hungry." PK

Or in light of Okrand's explanation: "A prisoner says (it) to the guard, ..."

  Dajatlhbogh vIyajbe'. yIjatlhqa'!
  I find no match for what you have just said. Please say it again.
  (unheard .wav file from KCD language lab)

This problematic line is literally "I don't understand what you said. Say it
again!" -- where "it" is the game player's mispronunced Klingon word or
phrase.  (KCD uses voice recognition software for those with microphones
installed in their computer.)
 
: puq ja' yaS choqIp'a'?
: This would be incorrect.

No, this *is* correct: "The officer tells the child, 'Will you hit me?'"  

 From the TKD example {qaja'pu' HIqaghQo'} we learn that {ja'} can also be used
in giving direct quotations, though {jatlh} may well be more common or
preferred stylistically.  
 
: puqvaD jatlh yaS choqIp'a'?
: This would be correct.

"The officer says to the child, "Will you hit me?"
 
: However,
: 
: HoDvaD jatlh DeghwI' nujunta'.

"The helmsman says to the captain, 'It has evaded us'."  

: HoD ja' DeghwI' nujunta'.
: Both of these would be correct.

"The helmsman tells the captain, 'It has evaded us'."  

How is this different from your "incorrect" {puq ja' yaS choqIp'a'}?  Or have I
misunderstood you?  (I admit not to have followed the previous thread closely.)



-- 
Voragh                       
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons

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