tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Jul 02 21:39:04 2000
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Re: ja'/jatlh
jIjatlh:
> > > "The officer says to the child, "Will you hit me?"
jatlh charghwI':
> The editor in me wants to comment on your use of quotation marks here.
> Three?
I'd started to quote the entire sentence, then realized that I hadn't been
doing this before, but forgot to delete the initial quote.
jatlh charghwI':
> The closest canon reference I can find is in HolQeD v7n4p7:
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> WM: Just to mention particular verbs in terms of whether they can be used
> for speech or not, you are saying that {ghel} is a word that would
probably
> not be used typically as a verb of speech. That even if you are asking a
> question you would still tend to use {ja'} or {jatlh}.
>
> MO: Yes.
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Ah, yes! I'd forgotten about this one. I remember being very annoyed when
I read it!
Okay, with that bit I'll agree that /ja'/ and /jatlh/ are only different in
their intended objects, and that they have absolutely no difference in
meaning. ::sniff::
I still hate seeing people start off large quotes of text with /ja'/. So
there!
jIjatlh:
> > I see by looking up the word "tell" that it largely involves the
recipient
> > of the information or command having actually understood, or at least
> > received, whatever is "told." On the other hand, "say" and "speak" have
> > more general meanings: they indicate the expression of something
verbally,
> > but have little connotation of a receiver of that information.
jatlh charghwI':
> I agree with you more about {ja'} than {jatlh}. I think that {ja'}
> definitely means what you say and {jatlh} definitely does not mean what
you
> say {jatlh} means. Meanwhile, I think {jatlh} means something you don't
> mention, and I think that both {ja'} and {jatlh} mean what you think
{jatlh}
> means.
I didn't look up /ja'/ and /jatlh/. I looked up "tell," "say," and "speak."
I found it quite telling (sic!) that I could find that particular pattern.
I'm not going to try to defend Okrand's choices of these words as meaningful
beyond their transitivity (well, such as it is).
jIjatlh:
> > Frequently, they're asking questions, or reciting poetry, or
> > some other thing. They're not "telling" us, and they're not
"reporting."
jatlh charghwI':
> Well, if there is no direct object, perhaps they are reporting.
If I had done the following:
ja' charghwI':
> Well, if there is no direct object, perhaps they are reporting,
there's a /ja'/ with no object, and you're not reporting. You're
suggesting, you're saying, you're speculating, but you're not reporting.
The only way this makes sense is to think of this as "charghwI' tells people
in general."
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SuStel
Stardate 504.3