tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Nov 16 13:14:51 1999

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Re: Klingon WOTD: baj (v)

On 16 Nov 1999 16:59:01 -0000 "Mark E. Shoulson" <[email protected]> 
wrote:

> >From: Carleton Copeland <[email protected]>
> >Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 17:55:13 +-300
> >Encoding: 20 TEXT
> >
> >> Canon:
> >> TWK p. 125
> >> yInlu'taH 'e' bajnISlu'
> >> Survival must be earned.
> >
> >
> >motlhbe' mu'tlheghvam pab 'e' vIparHa'qu' 'ach cha'logh jImIS:
> >
> >1)  qen muja' charghwI':  "the use of {-lu'} on the second verb of a 
> >Sentence-As-Object construction is HIGHLY controversial.  The pronoun {net} 
> >is preferred here."  qar'a'?
> 
> "HIGHLY controversial" is a little strong for me.  I'd certainly say that
> {net} is preferable, mainly because it's there and that's the only thing it
> means.  If you're going to use {'e' Xlu'}, then {net} shouldn't be in the
> language at all, and we know it is.

This pretty well sums up my attitude, but ~mark has 
inadvertantly pointed out something that I am immediately drawn 
to:
 
> yInlu'taH : something continues to live
> 
> 'e' bajnISlu' : something must earn that (previous sentence)
> 
> That is, something-indefinite must EARN the achievment of the sentence
> (something-indefinite lives).  There has to be earning for there to be
> living, but we're not concerned with precisely who's doing the living or
> the earning.  Just that the one requires the other.  (And don't go saying
> this proves that the -lu' has to refer to the "same" indefinite subject in
> both clauses, that's asking for confusion.  There IS NO particular subject
> in either, let alone the same one.)

Reconsider this last statement. You may have just explained why 
he used {'e' Xlu'} instead of {net X}. Maybe with {net} there is 
no connection between the subjects of the two sentences, but 
with the first sentence using {Xlu'} and the second sentence 
using {'e' Ylu'}, maybe there IS the association between the 
indefinite subjects. One Xs that one Ys, and these are both the 
same one.

So far as I know, this is the only example of {'e' Xlu'}, and it 
has this unique meaning that one must earn that one (the same 
one who is doing the earning) lives.

So, Voragh, your services would help here. Are there other 
examples of pairs of verbs with {-lu'} such that the assumption 
is that we are talking about the same indefinite subject? Things 
like {Xlu'chugh Ylu'} or {Xlu'taHvIS Ylu'} or {Xlu'mo' Ylu'} are 
what I'd be looking for. I'm thinking this is similar to the way 
we use second person to indicate indefinite subjects in English, 
like "You can't find what you don't seek," or to paraphrase the 
example we've been examining, "You must earn that you continue 
to live."
 
> ~mark

charghwI'

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