tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Nov 15 07:22:06 1999

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Re: KLBC: Phrasal Doubts, QIn cha'

I have not noticed anyone else answer this yet, and I understand 
that pagh is having problems getting through, so as former BG, 
I'll try to help.

On Sat, 13 Nov 1999 08:18:25 -0800 (PST) 
=?iso-8859-1?q?Clayton=20Cardoso?= <[email protected]> wrote:

> I'd like to be able to express the following ideas:

Before I say anything else, I have to note that I have a lot 
more respect for your seriousness about learning if you will 
actually TRY to express these things instead of just tossing 
them at us with no effort on your part whatsoever. 

The simple truth is that if you are trying to say something far 
enough away from basic grammar that you can't even try, then you 
are probably over your head and should be working on simpler 
stuff. Once you get the simpler stuff down, you'll be ready to 
make an attempt at this stuff.

Meanwhile, I'll do what I can to help. If nothing else, I hope 
to assure you that the language is expressive enough to say 
these things.
 
> Even the tree is red.

Doq Hoch. Doq Sor je.

> When I'm sixty years old I'll be tired.

javmaHben vIboghpu'DI' jIDoy'.

> This device is dangerous for people under three years
> old.

There are several ways to handle this. Here's one:

janvam lo'chugh puq Qup Qob ghu'. qaSpu'DI' puq qoS loSDIch 
qay'be'choH.

or:

janvam lo'chugh wejben boghpu'bogh puq vaj Qob ghu'.

(I like the first one better.)

> The 38-year-old woman will travel tomorrow.

wa'leS leng wejmaH chorghben boghpu'bogh be'.

> I walk faster than you.

This one is remarkably awkward because Okrand chose to make 
{nom} an adverbial instead of an adjectival verb. Still, we have 
tools:

mayItDI' DowIj law' law' DolIj law' puS.

> He arrived more suddenly than me.

I'm a little curious about exactly what this means. It would 
help to have context. Does it mean that he threw the door open 
and ran in, while you just slowly opened it and sneaked in? It 
is a rather curious and awkward sentence in English.

pay' paw. pay'Ha' jIpaw.

> I am in the green florest. (doubt here is {-Daq}
> location)

I'm assuming that "florest" is a misspelled "forest" and not a 
misspelled "florist", unless you know an extremely large and 
formerly very hungry professional flower vendor. I cannot 
understand your parenthetical incomplete sentence. I'm assuming 
that you are asking for the proper location of the suffix 
{-Daq}. It follows the adjectival verb, since it is a Type 5 
suffix. Only Type 5 suffixes are relocated in this way. There 
are a couple ways to say this:

ngem SuDDaq jIHtaH.

ngem SuDDaq vItu'lu'.

> I killed the big guy who ate a blue food. (doubt here
> is {-'e'} location)

It marks the head noun. The head noun is the one that is both 
part of the relative clause (guy who ate blue food) and the main 
clause {I killed the guy}. That makes "guy" the head noun, which 
should get the optional topical marker.

Soj SuD Sopbogh nuv'e' vIHoH.

> I want you to never use the device that is green.

not jan SuD Dalo' vIneH.

> I never want you to use the device that is green.

jan SuD Dalo' not vIneH.

Please note that this has exactly the same meaning as:

not jan SuD Dalo' vIneH.

If you never want someone to use something, that is effectively 
the same thing as wanting them to never use it.

> I want you to use the device that is never green.

not SuDchoHbogh jan'e' DaH Dalo' vIneH.

I threw the {DaH} in just to disambiguate the sentence, since 
under normal conditions an adverbial preceeds the direct object 
of a verb, so if that direct object is a relative clause, you 
can't tell if the adverbial applies to the main verb or to the 
relative clause. It's a classic ambiguity in the language, and 
many people here love ambiguities. They quite passionately 
defend them as one of the marks of REAL LANGUAGE. The more 
ambiguity, the better. They beat down anyone who dares voice a 
preference for actually conveying meaning.

See TKD, top of page 180 for my justification for the placement 
of {DaH}.

Also note, you can always say this sort of thing clearly in two 
sentences:

not SuDchoH jan. janvam Dalo' vIneH.

> =====
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charghwI'

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