tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Nov 07 13:21:25 1999

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Re: the scope of {-be'}



>From: "William H. Martin" <[email protected]>
>Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 17:23:14 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
>
>On 5 Nov 1999 03:35:16 -0000 "Mark E. Shoulson" <[email protected]> 
>wrote:
>
>> >From: "William H. Martin" <[email protected]>
>> >Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:42:51 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
>> >
>> >On Wed, 03 Nov 1999 09:32:44 CST Marc Ruehlaender 
>> ><[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> 
>> >> talking about the scope of {-be'} in {maqarbe'chu'},
>> >> charghwI' said (among many other things):
>> >> > But there is no way to apply negation to a pronoun unless it is 
>> >> > being treated as a verb. To use that in this kind of 
>> >> > construction, we have to go to the perversity of:
>> >> > 
>> >> > qarwI'pu' maHbe'.
>> >> > 
>> >> > Yuck.
>> >> >  
>> >> 
>> >> first of all, although _languages_ are not logical at all,
>> >> to me (not(we are accurate)) comes out to be the same as
>> >> (we are (not accurate)); ((not we) are accurate) covers a
>> >> subset of the former, namely that subset where there is
>> >> someone else who _is_ accurate. Both others _include_ the
>> >> cases where there is _noone_ who is accurate.
>> >> 
>> >> and in the languages I know, this latter case always has to
>> >> be described in some convoluted way:
>> >> 
>> >> it's not us who are accurate
>> >
>> >Others are more accurate.
>> >latlhpu' qar law' maH qar puS.
>> 
>> Or just {maqarbe' maH'e'}: WE are not accurate (likely someone else is,
>> though).
>> 
>> ~mark
>
>That works fine if you use the localized interpretation. 
>Meanwhile, if you use the globalized interpretation, {maH'e'} 
>follows {-be'} and is therefore not negated, and you are 
>EMPHASIZING that it is not negated.

Then I'm not following this whole "local" vs. "global" interpretation
business, when each should apply, what they all mean, and why they are
necessarily mutually exclusive and can't co-exist in a language.  Most
other languages I know have only loose scoping rules too.

~mark


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