tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Nov 05 06:25:06 1999

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Fw: And then...? And then...? (And then along came Jones...) - For MO

Hope I'm not the second of many to send this in. Just appeared on the
indicated ng.

Qermaq

-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Okrand
Newsgroups: startrek.klingon
Date: Friday, November 05, 1999 01:39 AM
Subject: Re: And then...? And then...? (And then along came Jones...) - For
MO


>
>Mark E. Shoulson wrote in message
><[email protected]>...
>
>
>>We now have {ghIq}, meaning "then" in the sense of
>>"subsequently..."  That is, after the last thing happened,
>>this happened; emphasizing the sequential aspect of the
>>narrative.  But having that, what about another kind of
>>"then"?  Something like a temporal analogue to {pa'}:
>>"then" in the sense of "at that time."  We have something
>>like this with {-DI'}, but that requires a verb or clause
>>which isn't always necessarily available or convenient.
>>Maybe there's something idiomatic with {-DI'}?  Or an
>>adverb?
>
>
>Yes and yes.  There is an adverbial which means "then" in
>the sense of "at that time" (as opposed to "subsequently").
>And there is also an idiom meaning something like "by that
>time."
>
>The adverbial is (ngugh}.  It is used mainly to emphasize
>that a particular event occurred at the same time as
>something else, though {ngugh} doesn't indicate what that
>time is.  Something else in the discussion makes that
>clear.  {ngugh} does not mean "at some (vague) time in the
>past" or "at some (unknown) time in the future."
>
>For example:
>
>(1) vagh SanID ben buDbe' wamwI'pu'.  ngugh Ho'Du'chaj lo'
>chaH, 'ach DaH tajmey lo'.
>
>"5,000 years ago, hunters were not lazy.  Then (at that
>time) they used their teeth, but now they use knives."
>
>({vagh SanID} "5,000," {ben} "years ago," {buD} "be lazy,"
>{-be'} "not," {wamwI'pu'} "hunters"; {ngugh} "then,"
>{Ho'Du'chaj} "their teeth", {chaH} "they," {'ach} "but,"
>{DaH} "now," {tajmey} "knives," {lo'} "they use")
>
>
>(2) DungluQ tIHIv.  ngugh Qongbe' chaH.
>
>"Attack them at noon!  They won't be sleeping then."  (or:
>"Attack them at noon.  They're not sleeping then.")
>
>({DungluQ} "noon," {tIHIv} "attack them! [imperative]";
>{ngugh} "then," {Qong} "they sleep," {-be'} "not," {chaH}
>"they")
>
>Note that in each case {ngugh} "then" refers to a time
>specified earlier in the discussion (here, "5,000 years
>ago" and "noon").  In the second example, the adverbial
>{ngugh} could be left out, and the basic meaning could
>still be the same ("Attack them at noon! They won't be
>sleeping.")  With {ngugh}, however, the speaker is
>emphasizing the time element.  The first example also could
>be recast without {ngugh} (for example, the second sentence
>could be two: {Ho'Du'chaj lo' chaH. DaH tajmey lo'.}  "They
>used their teeth.  Now they use knives.").  With {ngugh},
>however, the contrast between "then" and "now" is
>highlighted.
>
>The time reference need not occur in the immediately
>preceding sentence or clause (as it does in the examples
>above); it could be earlier in the discourse.
>
>Since {ngugh} points to or refers back to a previously
>established time reference, if that time reference is not
>clear (or is missing), an utterance containing {ngugh}
>would not make much sense.  If someone asks "When?" after
>hearing a sentence containing {ngugh}, unless the question
>resulted from inattentiveness, {ngugh} was probably used
>inappropriately.
>
>In addition to {ngugh}, there is an idiomatic expression
>involving the suffix {-DI'} "when, as soon as" used to mean
>"by that time, by the time that [something] occurred (or
>will occur)."  The event that has occurred (or will occur)
>is typically expressed in the immediately preceding
>sentence or clause, though it could have been uttered
>earlier.
>
>The idiom is found in two forms.  The shorter (and more
>frequently heard) version is the single word {pumDI'} "when
>it falls" ({pum} "fall" [that is, "fall down" or "fall off
>of something"], {-DI'} "when").  The longer version
>consists of {pumDI'} followed by a subject noun specifying
>what falls.  The most common noun heard is {'etlh} "sword,
>blade" (thus: {pumDI' 'etlh}, literally "when the blade
>falls").  Presumably the expression originally referred to
>a fight between two combatants wielding bladed weapons.
>The time at which one of them dropped the weapon and was
>thus defeated (or was as good as defeated) was a
>significant moment.
>
>Some speakers, however, are rather creative and use nouns
>other than {'etlh}.  For example: {pumDI' DaS} "when the
>boot falls," {pumDI' 'obmaQ} "when the ax falls," {pumDI'
>nagh} "when the stone falls," {pumDI' rutlh} "when the
>wheel falls."  There seems to be no restriction on what
>noun may be used here, as long as it is something that
>could possibly fall.  (Thus {pumDI' QoQ} "when the music
>falls" would not be used.)
>
>Choosing one noun or another to use in the idiomatic phrase
>is a form of word play.  Depending on the topic being
>discussed, the noun could add a touch of irony or even
>humor.  In any event, the choice of noun does not change
>the idiomatic meaning of the phrase. {pumDI' X}, where X is
>the subject noun, is used to mean "by then, by that time."
>
>The idiom might be used when talking about a feast that had
>taken place a few nights ago. If a guest arrived late --
>after the eating had already begun -- one might say
>something like:
>
>
>    tagha' pawpu' meb 'ach pumDI' Heghpu' qagh.
>
>or:
>
>    tagha' pawpu' meb 'ach pumDI' 'etlh Heghpu' qagh.
>
>
>"The guest finally arrived, but by then the gagh had died."
>
>({tagha'} "finally, at last," {pawpu'} "he/she has
>arrived," {meb} "guest," {'ach} "but," {pumDI' ('etlh)} "by
>then," {Heghpu'} "it has died," {qagh} "gagh")
>
>
>Unlike subordinate clauses in general, {pumDI' X}, when
>used
>idiomatically, always precedes the main clause ({Heghpu'
>qagh} in the example above).  When idiomatic usage is not
>involved, subordinate clauses may either precede or follow
>the main clause.
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