tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Mar 28 19:59:15 1999
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Re: use {law'/puS} bIQ'a'Daq
- From: "William H. Martin" <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: use {law'/puS} bIQ'a'Daq
- Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:59:29 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
- Priority: NORMAL
On Sat, 27 Mar 1999 13:56:55 -0800 (PST) Ed <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Alan Anderson wrote:
> >
> > jIja'pu':
> > >...If you want
> > >help with saying it more clearly, you'll have to explain what you mean
> > >in English first. :-)
>
> jInIDta' lo'taH raplaHlaw'wI'vetlh { 'un bIQ law' hIVje' bIQ puS },
The surprising thing is that you have built words with such
complexity, and yet so little meaning or correct grammar. Take
the first two words here: {jInIDta' lo'taH}. The first word
means, "I have accomplished trying." The second word means,
"He/she/it is continuously using him/her/it/them" or
"He/she/it/they are continuously using." Your first clue that
there is a problem here is that these are both "main" verbs.
They need to control an entire sentence. But there they are,
both in the SAME sentence. Neither one will submit. They battle
each other for control over the meaning of the sentence. Nobody
wins.
Then we get the mouthful. {raplaHlaw'wI'vetlh}. It is well
formed out of a legal combination of suffixes. "That thing which
apparently can be the same." I can't say it comes close to
meaning "comparative". I suggest that you go back to the meaning
of the sentence and build a Klingon sentence out of that meaning
instead of beginning with the words. You seem to begin with the
English words and then try to build an equivalent word in
Klingon for each of the Klingon words.
'un bIQ HIvje' bIQ je vIjuv vIneH. rap'a'? "I want to measure a
pot's water and a glass's water. Are they the same?"
Meanwhile, your attempt at a comparative fails because you've
used the noun {bIQ} as if it were a verb of quality, like {tIn}
or {tuj}.
> poj mI'vaD poj'e'.
Your English translates this to "as a number analysis".
Grammatically, this doesn't work. {-vaD} belongs on a noun at
the BEGINNING of a Klingon sentence. It doesn't work anywhere
else. The noun with {-vaD} has to preceed the verb it serves.
Since {poj'e'} has a noun suffix on it, this doesn't hold
together. {mI' pojmeH} means "In order to analyze a number" and
should be a phrase at the beginning of a sentence. Maybe that
would work?
> Do'pu'be' jIlo'law'pu' yapbe' Hol muchvaD mI'meyDaq
> nger.
While {Do'} can be either a verb or an adverb, if it has verb
suffixes on it, it has to be a verb. If it is a verb, then the
first three words of this sentence are all "main" verbs. There
are no dependent clauses here. You clearly don't understand
basic Klingon grammar and you are reaching WAY beyond your skill
level to say very complex things. You will do much better to
take on this language in smaller bites. Eventually, you WILL be
able to say things this complex if you keep working at it, but
you are not there yet.
It is not that you almost have it and with a little nudge your
sentences will be fixed. You've spent a great deal of time
assembling something through a process that you believed was
translation when it wasn't. You are doing things on a
word-by-word and phrase-by-phrase level when what you need to do
is build whole sentences that make sense. You can only do that
well if you back up and build simpler sentences. After you have
accomplished making good, simple sentences, you can start
progressing back towards this kind of complex thinking with the
language.
If you were trying to learn French or Russian or Chinese, would
you try translating something this complex before ever getting
confirmation that you were speaking simple sentences well?
> vaj, boyajbe'ba' mu'meywIj .
You are using English word order with Klingon words.
> jItobqangta' Hoch, bIQ tu'lu' 'undaq.
Again, you are using English word order with Klingon words.
Locatives come at the beginning of a sentence. Objects preceed
verbs. Each sentence has only one main verb. All other verbs
need a suffix to indicate its relationship with the main verb,
and the placement of these other verbs is dependent upon
specific grammatical rules. The word order is not as flexible in
Klingon as in English. It lacks English's "helper" words, and so
the word order and affixes give the context needed to understand
the words.
> potlhbe' 'oHmey nuq muqjaj HIvje'
> bIQDaq.
{'oHmey} is not a word. Try {bIH}. {-jaj} is the suffix used to
turn a statement into a toast, a wish or a curse, depending on
context, and again, you have several "main" verbs here with
nothing to explain how they are supposed to interact.
> I attempted to use the comparitve { 'un bIQ law' HIvje' bIQ puS }, as a
> number analysis. Unforunatly, I apparently did use not enough language
> for the presentation, in number theory, So my words you obviously not
> undestand them.
> All I could prove was, there is water in the pot. it's not important
> what the glass may have a volume of in water.
>
>
> qabwIj meQbejlI' qulvetlh.
Well said!
> 'ach chay' vut SoHlaH qul Hutlhlu'chugh.
These two sentences are the best stuff you've written. Replace
{vut SoHlaH} with {bIvutlaH} and you have your second real
Klingon sentence. You might also use a question mark instead of
a period, but that's just an optional detail.
charghwI' 'utlh