tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Mar 22 14:36:51 1999
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Using {law'/puS} (was Re: jIqontaH.)
- From: "William H. Martin" <[email protected]>
- Subject: Using {law'/puS} (was Re: jIqontaH.)
- Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:36:47 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
- In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
- Priority: NORMAL
charghwI'vo':
There is an old HolQeD interview with Okrand about law'/puS
which infuriated Krankor because it SEVERELY limited the
functionality of that construction. I'll try to find the time to
look it up at some point, but given your proclivity to having
access to all canon, you might find it faster than I do. I think
it would answer your question about what you want to do with the
comparative. I don't think it works.
On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:21:48 -0800 (PST) Steven Boozer
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Voragh:
> > <ghot> lo' Okrand law' <nuv> lo' Okrand puS 'e' wISov neH.
>
> maHvatlh (Zrajm C Akfohg):
> : pab'a' mu'tlheghvam? vIyaj 'ach lughlaHbe''a'?
> : <A Q law' B Q puS> vIjatlh TKD (p.70).
> : nuqDaq Datu' mu'tlheghvam chut?
> : <O-V-S law' O-V-S puS> 'oH'a', chutlIj?
>
> You're right. I'm not sure whether using {law'/puS} like this is kosher,
> but you obviously understood it right away. I was trying to say: "We only
> know that Okrand uses {ghot} more than (Okrand uses) {nuv}".
>
> We've seen Okrand use {law'/puS} for comparing things other than simple
> qualities ("Q"):
>
> QamvIS Hegh qaq law' torvIS yIn qaq puS
> Better to die on our feet than live on our knees. ST6
> "Dying while standing is preferable to living while kneeling." TKW
>
> (Note that this phrase seems to be an old, possibly {no' Hol}, quotation;
> the verbs would be {QamtaHvIS} and {tortaHvIS} in "modern" 24th century
> {ta' Hol}.)
>
> And, in comparing qualities, "A" can be fairly complex, particularly when
> "B" is {Hoch}:
>
> reH latlh qabDaq qul tuj law' Hoch tuj puS.
> The fire is always hotter on someone else's face. PK
"A" is not all that complex. The adverbial applies to the whole
sentence and the locative might also be considered to apply to
the whole comparative, or just to A. Is he saying that the fire
is hotter on someone else's face than anywhere else, or is he
saying that fire is hotter than anything else on someone else's
face? Since it is an old proverb and the literal meaning is
unclear, we can't presume to know for sure what the locative is
referring to.
The English is just as ambiguous. Is it saying that the fire is
hotter on someone else's face than on mine, or is it saying that
the fire is always hotter than something else on someone else's
face? There's no way to know for sure.
> noH ghoblu'DI' yay quv law' Hoch quv puS
> In war there is nothing more honorable than victory. TKW
"A" is not complex. The dependent clause is giving a time
setting for the entire comparison.
> tlhIngan wo' yuQmey chovlu'chugh Qo'noS potlh law' Hoch potlh puS
> The principal planet of the Klingon Empire, Qo'noS... S27
Again, a dependent clause sets up the conditional environment
for the entire comparison. It doesn't just apply to A.
> tlhIngan qorDu' pong potlh law' Hoch potlh puS
> Above all, the Klingon family name is highly valued. S13
{tlhIngan qorDu' pong} is just a noun phrase.
> DujvamDaq tlhIngan nuH tu'lu'bogh pov law' Hoch pov puS 'ej DujvamDaq
> 'op SuvwI' tu'lu'bogh po' law' tlhIngan yo' SuvwI' law' po' puS
> [IKV Pagh] has the best weapons and some of the finest warriors in
> the Klingon fleet. S7
Relative clauses form a noun phrase for both A parts. This is
more complex, but still just noun phrases in the A position.
> That being said, I wonder if these variants are grammatical:
>
> ?<ghot> lo' Okrand law' <nuv> lo' puS.
> Okrand uses {ghot} more than (he uses) {nuv}.
No way. {<ghot> lo' Okrand> is not a noun phrase. This doesn't
work. This DEFINITELY doesn't work. If you wanted to use {lo'}
as a noun and make it a noun phrase: {*Okrand* <ghot> lo'}
"Okrand's use of <ghot>" it might work. Better would be clearer
nouns like {chovnatlh} or possibly {wanI'}.
> ?<ghot> lo' Okrand law' latlh lo' puS.
> Okrand uses {ghot} more than (he uses) the other (one).
I have the same objection. {law'/puS} work only with noun
phrases in the A and B positions. You are attempting to use
whole sentences. There's no justification for that.
> ?<ghot> lo' Okrand law' Hoch lo' puS.
> Okrand uses {ghot} most (of all).
Nope. No way.
> --
> Voragh
> Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
charghwI' 'utlh