Re: KLBC challenge

["William H. Martin" <whm2m@cms.mail.virginia.edu>]

On Fri, 2 Jul 1999 11:13:40 -0400 David Trimboli 
<SuStel@email.msn.com> wrote:

> From: William H. Martin <whm2m@cms.mail.virginia.edu>
> 
> >> > Dat batlh 'oH 'ach DaSamnIS.
> >> (assuming it was supposed to be <<Dat 'oH batlh'e'>>)
> >Dat batlh tu'lu'.
> >
> >That is better than my "Everywhere, is honor" and your sentence
> >which can be translated either as "Everywhere, honor is," or
> >"Honor is everywhere," [LITERALLY, since that interpretation
> >uses {Dat} as the direct object instead of the locative.]
> 
> Please forgive me if this has already been gone over to death (and ignore my
> message if it has: I'm behind on the mailing list).
> 
> While I certainly agree that {Dat batlh tu'lu'} is the best sentence,
> there's nothing wrong with {Dat 'oH batlh'e'}.  What's the grammatical
> difference between that and, say, {nuqDaq 'oH puchpa''e'}? 

I don't disagree with any of this, though I honestly think 
{nuqDaq 'oH puchpa''e'} was probably written by Okrand before he 
invented the use of {tu'lu'} and if the earlier example wasn't 
so widely accepted, he'd probabaly say {nuqDaq puchpa' tu'lu'} 
or even more agressively Klingon {nuqDaq puchpa' vItu'laH}.

> {Dat} is not a
> direct object because (a) I'd hesitate to call a noun in front of any
> pronoun an object of any kind (though pronouns do have subjects), 

tlhIngan maH.

So, what grammatical role would you ascribe to the word 
{tlhIngan} in this widely known canon example? There are many 
more like it. In fact, there are a LOT more examples of pronouns 
acting as verbs with direct objects than there are of pronouns 
acting as verbs with subjects. The ONLY examples that I can 
recall of pronouns having subjects but not objects are the 
examples talking about where something is, and pretty much all 
of those examples could be rewritten with {tu'lu'} and probably 
sound better, avoiding the English fixation on the verb "to be".

> and (b)
> {Dat} never takes a Type 5 noun suffix anyway.

While this is true, it is also true that it is quite acceptable 
to use {Dat} as a noun, not necessarily as a locative.

> I have no problem with sentences like
> 
> meHDaq ghaHtaH HoD'e'.
> pa'DajDaq ghaHtaH loDHom'e'.
> 
> nuqDaq 'oH puchpa''e'?
> letlh retlhDaq 'oH puchpa''e'.

While I don't have a PROBLEM with them, I don't see them as 
shining examples in any way superior to what they could have 
easily been:

meHDaq HoD tu'lu'.
pa'DajDaq loDHom tu'lu'.
 
nuqDaq puchpa' tu'lu'?
letlh retlhDaq puchpa' tu'lu'.

> SuStel
> Stardate 99500.7

charghwI' 'utlh
Stardate 99503.5