tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Jan 28 10:48:06 1999

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Re: Near and far

: I have a strong preferece for {Y-Daq Hop X.} It makes a lot more 
: sense. From a reference point at Y's location, X is far. {-vo'} 
: is not a locative. It is a direction. It implies motion. {Hop} 
: does not imply motion. Use {-Daq}.
: I would agree with charghwI'
: Can Voragh show that -vo' is correct when Hop is the verb?

No, I can't; that was only anglocentric speculation.  {Y-Daq Hop X} "X is far
from Y" is right because - as MO reminds us in his startrek.klingon post cited
below - in addition to meaning "in, on, towards" {-Daq} is also the "general
locative" meaning "in the vicinity of" (i.e. *chez* in French, *u* in Russian,
*etsel* in Hebrew, etc.).  See TKD (p.27f):

 This suffix indicates that something is happening (or has 
 happened or will happen) in the vicinity of the noun to which it 
 is attached. It is normally translated by an English preposition: 
 to, in, at, on. The exact translation is determined by the meaning 
 of the whole sentence.

It is used in this sense when using {Sum} and {Hop}.  As Okrand says in his
interview (HolQeD 7.4:10):

 "You are near the table." ... {SoHDaq Sum raS}. This throws the 
 orientation away from the speaker (unmarked, unstated) and to 
 the listener (marked, stated: "at you, where you are").

FWIW, here is what I have on {Hop} "be far, be remote":

 As for how to use {Sum} 'be near, nearby'--that will require some 
 more time with Maltz. {Do' Sum matlh}. I would think, however, 
 that it would work the same way as {Hop} 'be far'. 
 (MO on the old MSN Expert Forum 9/97)

 SuvwI' vI' Dub naQvam 'ej ray' HopDaq bachlu'meH chuqna'
 ghurmoH naQvam 
 This serves to steady the aim of a warrior and increase
 the effective range for distance targeting.  S14

 Hop jabwI'.
 The waiter is far *from me* right now. (HolQeD 7.4:10)

{logh Hop} "deep space"

 HaDlu'meH, QuSlu'meH, SuDlu'meH lojmIt Da logh Hop Hut tengchaH. 
 vaj loghDaq lenglaHtaH Humanpu' 
 space station Deep Space Nine is the gateway for the exploration, 
 intrigue and enterprise that mark the continuation of the human
 adventure into space... (SkyBox DSN99)

{-vo'} "from" (Type 5: syntactic marker):

 This suffix is similar to {-Daq} but is used only when action is 
 in a direction away from the noun suffixed with {-vo'}: {pa'vo' 
 yIjaH} "Leave the room!" A more literal translation of this sentence 
 might be "Go from the room!" (TKD p.28)

 In English, the preposition "in" is sometimes locative (that is, 
 referring to location) in meaning (e.g., in the house, on the table) 
 but sometimes not (as in the examples cited above, trust in God, 
 believe in magic). In fact, in English, in frequently doesn't have a 
 literally locative sense. We use it all over the place: in debt, work 
 in television, in preparing this report, speaking in Klingon, and so 
 on. Likewise, in addition to the locative uses of the English 
 preposition "from" (run from the burning house, traveled from Paris), 
 there are non-locative uses (know right from wrong, stop me from 
 eating). The story's the same for other English prepositions (for 
 example, locative "on the table", non-locative "go on with your story"; 
 locative "under the table", non-locative "under discussion"). In 
 Klingon, however, the noun suffixes {-Daq} (the general locative) and 
 {-vo'} (from) express only notions related to space (to a place, in a 
 place, from a place, and so on). They are thus not the same as English 
 prepositions, which have a wider range of usage." 
 (MO on startrek.klingon 3/23/98)

 naDevvo' yIghoS 
 Go away! TKD

 pa'vo' pagh leghlu'
 The room has no view. CK

 naDevvo' jIleghlaHchu'be' 
 I can't see well from here. CK 

 chaq SoHvo' vay' vIje' vIneH 
 [Maybe I'd like to buy something from you. (PK, untranslated)

 naDevvo' vaS'a'Daq majaHlaH'a'?
 Can we get to the Great Hall from here? PK

 HoD, yo' SeHyaH nIvvo' potlh De' wIHevtaH.  (?)
 Captain, new data, hostages on Nimbus III.  ST5
 [lit. "Captain, we are receiving a priority message from [Fleet?]
 Operations Command." (from ST5 novel)]

 jav Hogh maH Qo'noSvo' 
 We am... Six weeks out of Kronos. (sic!) ST6

 may'meyDajvo' Haw'be' tlhIngan 
 A Klingon does not run away from his battles. TKW

 ghe'torvo' narghDI' qa'pu' 
 when spirits escape from Gre'thor 
 (idiom: to speak of an impossibility) KGT

 juHqo' Qo'noSvo' loghDaq lengtaHvIS tlhInganpu' 
 During the (aggresive) expansion of the Klingon people from their
 homeworld of Kronos into space... SP1

Once again, {reH lugh charghwI'}.  Of course, this time he did get it straight
from Maltz!

Ca'Non Master of the Klingons

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