tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Jan 27 15:40:46 1999

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Re: Near and far

Voragh wrote:

> To say however that X and Y are located near *each other* (the speaker's
> location being irrelevant), you would say:
>  Y-Daq Sum X.
>  X is near Y.
> But WRT "X is far from Y", do we say:
>  Y-Daq Hop X.
> or
>  Y-vo' Hop X.

charghwI' answered: 

: I have a strong preferece for {Y-Daq Hop X.} It makes a lot more 
: sense. From a reference point at Y's location, X is far. {-vo'} 
: is not a locative. It is a direction. It implies motion. {Hop} 
: does not imply motion. Use {-Daq}.

That's how I read the interview too.  But since MO's examples used {Sum}, I
wasn't 100% certain.  We do have one clear example using both {-Daq} and {-vo'}
together in PK:

 naDevvo' vaS'a'Daq majaHlaH'a'?
 Can we get to the Great Hall from here?

Here, there is definitely movement implied - going from here to there - using
{jaH} even, which MO also discussed in your HolQeD interview.  Okrand first
discussed {-vo'} and {-Daq} in TKD (p.28):

 This suffix is similar to {-Daq} but is used only when action 
 is in a direction away from the noun suffixed with {-vo'}: 
 {pa'vo' yIjaH} "Leave the room!" A more literal translation 
 of this sentence might be "Go from the room!"

Later on startrek.klingon (3/23/98), he wrote about the figurative uses of
"in", "on" and "from" in English vs. Klingon {-Daq} and {-vo'}:

 In English, the preposition "in" is sometimes locative (that is, 
 referring to location) in meaning (e.g., in the house, on the 
 table) but sometimes not (as in the examples cited above, trust 
 in God, believe in magic). In fact, in English, in frequently 
 doesn't have a literally locative sense. We use it all over the 
 place: in debt, work in television, in preparing this report, 
 speaking in Klingon, and so on. Likewise, in addition to the 
 locative uses of the English preposition "from" (run from the 
 burning house, traveled from Paris), there are non-locative uses 
 (know right from wrong, stop me from eating). The story's the 
 same for other English prepositions (for example, locative "on 
 the table", non-locative "go on with your story"; locative "under 
 the table", non-locative "under discussion"). In Klingon, however,
 the noun suffixes {-Daq} (the general locative) and {-vo'} "from" 
 express only notions related to space (to a place, in a place, 
 from a place, and so on). They are thus not the same as English 
 prepositions, which have a wider range of usage.

I'm still not sure whether the space-related notion (e.g. motion) could be
hypothetical as well as literal.  If someone is "far from me", there is the
possibility that that someone might move from there (where he's standing) to
here (where I'm standing).  In the meantime, I'll stick with {Y-Daq Hop X}
since this is consistent with {Sum} and I understand his reasoning on how
{-Daq} works.

Ca'Non Master of the Klingons

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