tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Dec 30 13:51:21 1999
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Re: {law'} = "much"? [on a new topic now]
- From: "William H. Martin" <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: {law'} = "much"? [on a new topic now]
- Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:50:24 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
- In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
- Priority: NORMAL
On Thu, 30 Dec 1999 12:18:15 -0600 Steven Boozer
<[email protected]> wrote:
> charghwI':
> >This crashes into the unresolved conflict we have over whether
> >{law'} can mean "much" as well as "many", as in {nIn law'
> >vIDIl}. Does this mean "I pay for much fuel," or does it have to
> >mean, "I pay for many fuels,"?
>
> The difference being...? Many different *types* of fuel? How often would this
> distinction come up?
The whole point is that while we can LOGICALLY conclude that
{law'} can mean "much" in addition to the definitions given, and
if it can't then we have a void in the vocabulary, but I had
never found any instances of Okrand using it to mean "much".
Instead, I had only noticed him use it meaning "many".
I see below that you have found exactly the examples I was
looking for. batlh Qu'maj Datoy'taHneS.
> ghuchu'wI':
> : I'm certain it can be *translated* as "much" without difficulty. Whether
> : or not it *means* that is probably not relevant. There are odd questions
> : to deal with whenever we consider "mass" nouns in Klingon. There might
> : not be any semantic distinction between "much fuel" and "many fuels" or
> : between "much money" and "many monies". We've seen {'ul law'} in canon,
> : with the only reasonably direct translation being "much electricity". I
> : don't really need to know whether "many electricities" is more literally
> : correct.
>
> Fortunately, we have much more than the brief glossary entry to go on. Okrand
> has used {law'} in four ways:
>
> 1. Following the "mass" nouns {'ul} electricity, {HoS} power, {luch} equipment)
> without a plural suffix (as you would expect). Note he translates {law'(qu')}
> differently in each case:
>
> chIch vay' 'oy'moHmeH 'oy'naQ 'ul law' tlhuD 'oH
> Painstiks...emit a highly-charged shock for the express purpose of
> inflicting pain. S32
>
> HoS law'qu' luch law'qu' je lo' Duj nuH pat Hub pat je
> A huge amount of the ship's power and technology is devoted to its
> weapons grid and defensive systems. SP3
>
> HoS law'qu' natlhmo' So'wI'
> Due to the tremendous energy drain of a cloaking device... S33
While I believe he could be more explicit than this, I'm quite
willing to accept these as definitive.
> 2. Following count nouns, interestingly all *with* a plural suffix BTW, usually
> translated "many":
This is what I generally expect. Hmmm. But what if one leaves
the plural suffix off? Would that mean something else? Hmmmm.
> Dujmey law' DachIjpu'
> You have navigated many ships. (idiom) KGT
>
> Suv qabDu' law'
> many faces fight (idiom) KGT
>
> tlhIngan Dujmey law'qu' SommeyDaq batlh cha'lu'
> [The Klingon symbol] has been emblazoned upon the hulls of countless
> Klingon starships. SP1
>
> 3. Following a *verb* (!) in the idiomatic comparative constructions {A Q law'
> B Q puS}, where "any verb expressing a quality or condition may fit into the Q
> slot" (TKD:70). This usage alone shows that {law'} and {puS} aren't as simple
> as they might first appear.
This grammar is so unrelated to anything else that I would not
draw any conclusions from it.
> 4. The odd {lo' law' bID choQ} "a half utility deck" (i.e. "many use/multiple
> purpose" deck?) in the BoP poster:
>
> cha' choQmey naQ tu'lu' 'ej tep choQ bIngDaq lo' law' bID choQ tu'lu'
> 2 Full Decks and a Half Utility Deck under the Cargo Deck (KBP)
Yes, odd.
> charghwI's unresolved issues aside, I think it's fairly clear that usage shows
> {law'(qu')} can be translated "many/much/a (huge) amount/etc." according to
> context. It probably works just like {'ar} "how many? how much?". (I wonder
> if we'll discover that {puS} works the same way?)
My issue is now resolved. While you consider {puS}, also
consider {'op} and how it might be related. Something
intermediate? Or is the number genuinely unspecified with no
suggestion at all whether it is "several" "a few" or "some".
> If you really need to specify "many fuels" vs. "much fuel" you might be able to
> add a plural suffix: ?{nInmey law'}. This may well sound as odd in Klingon as
> "many fuels" does in English, at least to me. OTOH, "fuels" may be a common
> term or jargon in the fuel production industry or at refueling depots, much
> like the plural form "monies" is heard most often from English-speaking
> accountants or clerks. (I once catalogued a 2,000-page reference book
> entitled, "Fishes of the Pacific". Apparently in biology the redundant form
> "fishes" refers to different species of fish, while the usual plural "fish"
> refers to multiple fish of the same species. This is probably more a
> peculiarity of English grammar and usage than Klingon.)
One can never know.
> --
> Voragh
> Ca'Non Master of the Klingons