tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Aug 10 08:25:15 1999
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Re: Vowels
- From: "William H. Martin" <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: Vowels
- Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:24:09 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
- In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
- Priority: NORMAL
On Fri, 6 Aug 1999 16:49:56 -0400 Marc Ruehlaender
<[email protected]> wrote:
> jatlh ~mark:
> > > Klingon vowels are well defined as well (as opposed to English, which has
> > > lots and sometimes more than people realize). there's a, e, I, o, u. You
> > > could argue that diphthongs in Klingon comprise sorta vowels
> >
>
> jatlh charghwI':
> > I don't believe that Klingon has any diphthongs. I've never seen
> > one. Since {y} and {'} are consonants, the only affix that
> > offers any potential for a diphthong is {-oy}, and that is
> > preceeded by {'} if it follows an open syllable. So, where do
> > you get this idea of a diphthong in Klingon?
> >
> I'm sure, ~mark can defend himself quite well, but in the end
> it's a matter of terminology. Whether you call sequences like
> {ay}, {aw} etc. diphtongs (you'd only do that if there is no
> syllable boundary between {a} and {y}/{w}, of course) or you
> call them vowel+consonant only matters for how you write the
> phonological(?) rules and...
Again, when you look at the phonological patterns of Klingon,
you can either say:
{y} and {w} are consonants which constitute participants in two
of the three allowable consonant clusters at the end of a
Klingon syllable.
Or you can say:
{y} and {w} are the only vowels that can begin a word, and they
are the only vowels that are a necessary part of the only
diphthongs allowed in Klingon, and they are the only vowels that
never appear alone in the typical vowel position in a syllable
and they are the only vowels which frequently behave exactly
like normal consonants at the beginning or end of a syllable.
Take your choice. Do you really consider this to be merely a
matter of arbitrary choice in terminology? At best, you could
call them semi-vowels which always behave as consonants except
for the diphthongs they create when they follow any normal
vowel. It is telling that they are not preceeded by even a
glottal stop when they begin a syllable, and so they never form
a diphtlhong as the first of two vowels, unless they are the
ONLY vowel that can begin a root word. The exceptions you have
to make in order to call them anything but consonants is just
ugly.
> > > while that bothers
> > > some folks the fact is that if you define the accompanying rules right you
> ^^^^^^^^^^ (like, e.g., charghwI' :-)
>
> > > wind up with the same result, so what's the difference. It's likely
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^!!!
The difference is obvious. One explanation is simple. The other
is wittering, like a string of apologies for why the explanation
doesn't work very well.
> > > simpler not to, though, since diphthongs are not commonly used as
> > > syllable-nuclei except with specific cases (final consonant ', etc (and
> > > others, I know, this isn't exhaustive))
> >
> > It sounds like you are counting {y} as a vowel. I don't.
> >
> what it _should_ sound like, though, is that non-syllable-initial
> {y} and {w} can (but don't need to) be seen as forming a diphtong
> with the preceding vowel.
If that is all you say, then you have more explaining to do. My
objections have less to do with the sound of the {w} and {y}
than the behavior. They behave the same way that all consonants
behave with the simple exception that like {r} combines
with {gh} at the end of a syllable, they can combine with {'} at
the end of a syllable.
You can either say that they always behave as consonants (and
are exceptional when they behave as parts of specific consonant
clusters at the end of syllables), or you have to explain why
they behave as consonants except when they are behave as vowels
participating in a diphthong, but only as the second member of
that diphthong and only with certain vowels... Yuck.
> Marc Ruehlaender
> aka HomDoq
> [email protected]
>
charghwI' 'utlh