tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Apr 02 11:08:43 1999

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Re: Order of ordinals

SkyBox Card S15:

	wa'DIch tlhIngan Dujmey luleghlu'pu'bogh rur qItI'nga' Duj 
	 tera' vatlh DIS poH cha'maH wej HochHom lo'lu'taH.
	Similar in configuration to the first Klingon vessels encountered, 
	 the K'Tinga-Class remained in use for most of the 23rd century.

:  We have exactly ONE canon example that suggests this would work. 
:  We have no explanation and no confirming example. I am NOT 
:  promoting this as accepted use because I feel like what we gain 
:  is small enough and could be accomplish with an easy enough work 
:  around:

: I winced terribly when I first encountered {wa'DIch} obviously taking the
: position of an adverbial.  I thought this must not be MO's concoction.

I already mentioned that I suspected this SkyBox usage not to be Okrandian,
but rather a result of a "helpful" editor at SkyBox.  As I understand it,
SkyBox supples Okrand with the text of each card, which he translates and
returns.  MO doesn't compose them himself in Klingon, nor does he have
control of the English translation.  If Okrand attends the next qep'a',
some should ask him about the SkyBox cards in general, and S15 in particular.

If you look at the English text of S15, you will see that there is NO
adverbial whatsoever in the clause he's translating, let alone the English
adverbial "first" or "firstly".  Unless Okrand was feeling creative and
playful that day (which I admit he's done in the past), the simplest
explanation is that the intended text was {tlhIngan Dujmey wa'DIch
luleghlu'pu'bogh}.  This corresponds to the intended English text "the
first Klingon vessels encountered" (i.e. "seen") without the need for
inventing any new grammar by extending the use of {-DIch} to refer to a
deleted "headless" noun (used adverbial or not).   

Hmmm... Okrand *might* have misunderstood the English as being "the Klingon
vessels encountered first", in which case "first" does function adverbially.

Too many ifs to know just what is happening on this card.

: 	Qu' wa'DIch, blah blah blah.
: 	Qu' cha'DIch, blah blah blah.
: or
: 	wanI' wa'DIch, blah blah blah.
: 	wanI' cha'DIch, blah blah blah.
: why repeat [Qu'] or [wanI'] (or whatever noun the ordinals are attached to).
: Clip them off.
: 	wa'DIch,...
: 	cha'DIch,...

Nice idea, but wouldn't you want to clip them off the 2nd and following
ordinals?  The listener would still need to know what the original noun was
in the string, otherwise s/he's likely to respond: {nuq wa'DIch?} "the
first *what*?"

Ca'Non Master of the Klingons

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