tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Mar 04 10:00:11 1998
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Okrand on -be' & -Ha'
- From: Steven Boozer <[email protected]>
- Subject: Okrand on -be' & -Ha'
- Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:58:27 -0600 (CST)
Marc Okrand posted yesterday on the ST:Continuum news server:
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Marc Okrand <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: startrek.klingon
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:53:39 -0500
Subject: Re: -be', -Ha'
David Trimboli wrote ...
>Qermaq wrote ...
>>>par parHa' dislike like
>>>naD naDHa' commend discommend
>>>yuD yuDHa' dishonest honest
>>
>>Dishonesty may be a default too. Odd that <voq> is "trust" though...
>>
>>>yep yepHa' careful careless
>
>
>An idea: ALL of these, including {voq}, could be the "default," as Qermaq
>suggests. Consider a battle (a fairly default Klingon activity). Liking
>and being honest are not particularly important in battle. However,
>trusting and being careful are. Whether or not this is the actual reason
>for these alleged defaults, it shows that there might easily be a good
>reason that {voq} defaults to what we consider a positive term.
>
>(Note: disliking and being dishonest may equate with positive terms in
>Klingon, thus their being "defaults.")
>
>SuStel
Learning about Klingon character or mindset by way of studying what Qermaq
terms "defaults" in vocabulary will probably lead to interesting insights.
I think both Qermaq and SuStel are on the right track: {par} "dislike," for
example, is probably the more neutral or expected reaction of a Klingon to
someone else; {parHa'} "like" (or, more revealingly, "not dislike" or
"undislike" or "misdislike" or even "disdislike" [?!], since it's made up
of {par} "dislike" plus {-Ha'}, the negative suffix implying that something
is undone or done wrongly) is a modification (an undoing?) of this expected
reaction.
It may be that not everything has a default. Note, for example, {QuchHa'}
"be unhappy" and {'IQ} "be sad." These two words don't mean quite the same
thing: {QuchHa'} is made up of {Quch} "be happy" plus the negative suffix
{-Ha'}, suggesting a change from being happy to not being happy. {'IQ} does
not have this connotation, nor does {Quchbe'} "be not happy" (or, if you
prefer, "not be happy"). Nevertheless, is the default in this pair {Quch}
"be happy" or is it {'IQ} "be sad"?
On the other hand, when the only way to express a certain idea is by
modifying a word (for example, by adding a suffix) rather than using an
entirely different word, perhaps one can argue that the nonmodified word is
the default. Thus, the only (known) way to express the opposite of {par}
"dislike" is by adding a negative suffix to {par}. Unlike {QuchHa'} "be
unhappy" and {'IQ} "be sad," there's no choice when it comes to "like";
you've got to use a word based on {par}: {parHa'}. It appears that the
only kind of "like" there is is the "undoing" or "misapplication" of
"dislike." (Of course, you could also say {parbe'} "like" or, more
literally, "not dislike," using the negative suffix {-be'} "not"; but
{parbe'} is also based on {par}. {parHa'} is heard more frequently than
{parbe'}, however, and this may be a hint at the usual way a Klingon looks
at things.)
Interestingly (and bolstering the idea that "dislike" is a default),
there's also the word {muS} "hate" (which is presumably stronger somehow
than {par} "dislike"). It also has no known opposite except for the
suffixed forms: {muSHa'} "dis-hate" or "unhate"; {muSbe'} "not hate."
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Marc Okrand <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: startrek.klingon
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:53:45 -0500
Subject: Re: -be', -Ha'
TPO wrote....
>par parHa' dislike like
>naD naDHa' commend discommend
>yuD yuDHa' dishonest honest
>yep yepHa' careful careless
>
>etc etc
>
>but then we have:
>
>Qoch Qochbe' disagree agree
>
>why not QochHa'
The short answer is that we *can* have QochHa', it's just not listed in the
Dictionary. As I wrote elsewhere (in the old MSN newsgroup, but repeated
in another thread in this newsgroup), for the most part, words in The
Klingon Dictionary consisting of verb + suffix are there as a matter of
convenience. That is, if you want to look up how to say "misinterpret,"
it's there -- {yajHa'}. {yajHa'} consists of {yaj} "understand" plus the
negative suffix {-Ha'} "undo," and, even though {yajHa'} is an entry in the
Dictionary, there is nothing to prevent other suffixes, including the other
negative suffix {-be'}, from following {yaj}. Thus {yajbe'} is a perfectly
well-formed word meaning "not understand."
Because there is a meaning difference between the two negative suffixes
(for sake of brevity, {-Ha'} suggests doing or being something in the wrong
way or undoing something; {-be'} suggests simply not doing or not being
something), there is a meaning difference between {yajbe'} and {yajHa'}.
The first word implies the absence of understanding ("not understand"); the
second implies that any understanding that there may have been was
imprecise or askew or not properly done ("misunderstand, misinterpret").
Which brings us to {Qochbe'} and {QochHa'}. Both consist of the verb
{Qoch} "disagree" plus a negative suffix. Parallel to the example above
with {yaj} "understand," {Qochbe'} implies an absence of disagreeing
(hence "agree"); {QochHa'} implies that any disagreeing was misplaced or
misconstrued or perhaps has been "undone." English lacks a simple way to
say this. (At least I couldn't think of one; if anyone has any
suggestions, I'd be interested in seeing them.) Made-up words like
"misdisagree" or "undisagree" may get the idea across, but they're hardly
elegant (unlike Klingon {QochHa'}, which is elegance itself).
Now this raises another question, slightly different from the original one:
If both {Qochbe'} and {QochHa'} are acceptable Klingon words, why is one in
the Dictionary and the other not? For better or worse, the Dictionary is a
"one size fits all" sort of work. It's for those who want to study the
language in depth (though it is far from exhaustive), but also for those
who want a quick reference (How do you say "agree"?). Since "agree" (that
is, "not disagree") is probably going to be said more frequently that
"misdisagree" (or a more felicitous equivalent), it got to be listed.
Similarly, {naDHa'} "discommend" is listed due to its importance in Klingon
culture, though {naDbe'} "not commend" is a properly formed word.