tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Jun 16 14:37:50 1998

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Re: KLBC [B. Clawson]

Hi and welcome to the list.  I'm Qov, the current Beginners'
Grammarian and thus the individual charged with answering messaged
marked "KLBC."

> wa'DIch ghItlhqoqwIj jabbI'IDghomvaD 'oH, 
> This is my first so-called posting on the list, so don't > be mean.

Have another look at the section on numbers in the chuvmey chapter. 
An ordinal number (like wa'DIch) goes AFTER the noun it modifies.  

Reread the section on type 5 noun suffixes, and notice that a noun
with a type 5 suffix (other than -'e') always goes before the clause
it refers to.

jabbI'IDghomvaD ghItlhqoqwIj wa'DIch 'oH
"It is my first so-called manuscript for the list."

If you want to say "this" in Klingon you must say "this <something>,"
using the noun suffix {-vam}.

jabbI'IDghomvamvaD ghItlhwIj wa'DIch 'oH ghItlhqoqvam'e'

"This so-called manuscript is my first for this list."

See section 6.3 to understand the to-be structure.  Also note the word
{QIn} "message."  It could be useful.

>vaj peqejQo'. 

maj.  

> bomvam tera'ngan Holvo' vImughta':

Again, a noun with a type five suffix can't be inside the main clause.
 {-vo'} indicates *movement* away from, an idea not necessarily
matching translation from a language.  For more confidence, I'd say,
{tera'ngan Hol bomvam vImughta'}
"I have translated this Earth language song."

I strongly recommend agaist translating poetry or songs from other
languages into Klingon until your Klingon is qute fluent.  Translation
traps you into copying grammar and vocabulary as well as ideas and
meter from the source lnaguge, and leads to very stilted and often
outright wrong Klingon. 

> ramjep bIQ yItlhutlhQo'

On its own this is a fine sentence.  "Do not drink the water of
midnight" or "Do not drink water at midnight."  The ambiguity works
better than the English original.

You've rearranged the meaning of the original with your translation,
reversing what you are stating and what you have heard said.  I'm not
sure if that was your intention.  

> ramjep bIQ yItlhutlhQo' jatlhlu' 'e' vIQoybejpu' 

I have definitely heard one say not to drink water at midnight.

The "I have heard said" is an English turn of words that doesn't
translate into Klingon well because of the way speech is reported. 
The type seven suffix {-pu'} on the verb that takes {'e'} as its
object is a no-no.

{jatlhlu'law'} expresses "I have heard said."  Don't try to copy the
way English expresses ideas.  Instead use Klingon tools.  I strongly
advise you to work with the Klingon tools on their own, not trying to
translate, so you can discard the English words and work directly with
the ideas.

> ramjep poHHommo' Hegh Hoch bIQ
At midnight, because of an instant, all water dies.

I don't have a problem with poHHom for instant in this context.  It
could also refer to a longer period of time that was of lesser
significance, but it works to my mind as a period of time of lesser
duration, especially as you then explain it.

I suspect that you intended the {-mo'} on {poHHom} to make this
sentence the reason for the preceding one.  A {-mo'} suffix on a noun
can only make that noun the cause of the something that follows it. 
If you were to move {-mo'} to the verb (it's the only suffix that has
the same meaning on noun as verb), the clause would mean "because at
the instant of midnight all water dies."  But what you really wanted
to say was, "because I have heard that at the instant ..."

So the {-mo'} would rightly go on the verb {jatlhlu'}.  You then run
into the same ambiguty, that you may or may not want, also regarding
what is attributed and what is not.  The words in a typical poem have
been delicately balanced with respect to their shades of meaning, the
intricacies of the grammar they are are in and the impact the poet
wants to make.  When you try to swap in constructions in a foreign
language you may entirely lose the effect.

Don't try to translate a poem before you can reliably write basic,
non-convoluted sentences.

Try:
Qov is confused because my sentence is long.
Qov is confused because of my sentence.

> At midnight drink no water,
> for I have heard said,
> that on the stroke of midnight,
> all water goes dead.

> poHHom veb yItlhutlhlaH qoj
> You may drink the moment after,
> or the moment just before,

{-laH} and {yI-} seem to conflict. You're giving the order, "be able
to drink!"  Why not say {DatlhutlhlaH} "you are able to drink it."

Note that "can" and "may" have almost converged in meaning in English.
 Pay attention to the separate meanings when translating.  {-laH}
denotes ability, not permission, or recommendation.

> poHHom vebHa' yItlhutlhlaH

vebHa' works for me.  Soma problem with {yItlhutlhlaH}.

> 'ach bIyepchugh 'e' valchu'
> but it's better to be cautious,

A classic error with {'e'}.  The pronoun {'e'} is used ONLY for the
sentence-as-object (SAO) construction.  If the sentence preceding
{'e'} is not the object of the following verb (or if there is no
sentence preceding or no verb following) then you musn't use {'e'}. 
Period.  

{val} takes no object. {bIyepchugh} is a subordinate clause with no
main clause, thus not a sentence.

How about: {bIvalchugh bIHoj} "if you are smart you will be cautious."

> wa' poHHomvaD bIloSchugh
> and wait a moment more,

Uh-uh.  You can't use {-vaD} to mean "for" in "for a minute."  See the
proverb about the running man (in TKD appendix) to see how to express
"for " a duration.

"If you wait ..."

> qIpchu'ta'DI' poHwI' 'ej
> 'til the clock has finished striking,

"...as soon as the timer has struck through and ..."

Someone has already told you about {tlhaq}.  Never assume vocabulary
isn't there.  We have a very ecclectic lexicon.

We sometimes use "strike" to refer to a noise a clock makes even if it
isn't made by striking something.  I'm not certain this translates.

Careful, you've written another sentence with no main clause, I think.

> DaHjaj mojta' wa'leS

"tomorrow will have become today."

> and tomorrow is today.

> pagh bIQ Hegh botlhutlhjaj
> Or you'll drink dead water,

Careful using {pagh} for "or" at the beginning of a sentence. It also
means zero or nothing.
You've inexplicably changed from singular you to plural you.   In a
language that makes the distinction, this is as jarring as any other
change of person.
{-jaj} expresses a wish, not future tense, or whatever you are trying
to make it do here.
{Hegh} means "die" or "death", not "be dead."

Your sentence says, 
"May y'all drink no death of water."

> 'ej bomachchoH 'ej bongabchoH
> and whither quite away.

?"and you will come to be small it and to disappear it."?

Watch your prefixes.  The no object prefixes are appropriate here.  
loj, Sab, look up.

Another reason why you shouldn't translate poetry is that the BG gets
tired and cranky trying to read it and doesn't give you as much
information.

Cultural note, water isn't considered a fit beverage for a Klingon.

English note:
wither (v) -  lose vitality, become dried and wrinkled
withers (n) - shoulder ridge of a horse
whither (adv) - to what place? (archaic)

- Qov.

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