tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Sep 07 20:12:21 1997

Back to archive top level

To this year's listing

[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next]

Re: That's 'aD

On Sun, 24 Aug 1997 20:34:54 -0700 (PDT)  "Mark E. Shoulson" 
<[email protected]> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> >Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 20:35:16 -0700 (PDT)
> >From: Alan Anderson <[email protected]>
> >
> >Yeah, the changing nature of the Klingon "ask" has me mildly amused.  In
> >the original edition of TKD, we have {tlhob} "ask".  The addendum gave it
> >the expanded meaning of "request, ask, plead".  Now KGT gives us {ghel}
> >"ask (a question)".  Which one do we use as a verb of saying, and why?

My immediate suspicion is that Okrand has created parallel 
question verbs to the existing verbs of saying. {ja'} is similar 
to {tlhob} in that the natural object is the person addressed. 
{jatlh} is similar to {ghel} in that the natural object of the 
verb {ghel} is a noun representing the question in the way that 
{Hol} or {SoQ} are objects for {jatlh}. Unfortunately, no 
Klingon nouns representing questions immediately come to mind.

Remember that the object of a verb of speech is not the 
quotation itself. Perhaps {ghel} is always used intransitively, 
unless someone can come up with a common noun for "question".

> >Is there a proper way to use either or both in a non-saying way?  I'm
> >reasonably sure we'll work it out soon. :-)

nuq chotlhob? bIghel'a' neH? Dajanglu' DaneH'a'?

I just used both verbs without using them in quotations, if that 
is what you are asking about.

> I'm starting to have a theory about this.  Okrand's been refining the
> meanings of these "ask" verbs and is realizing what he finds missing.  IF
> this reading is right (and I'm really not convinced of it myself), what we
> have here is that (a) {tlhob} is "ask" specifically in the sense of
> request.  Not sure what its object would be, perhaps verb-of-saying,
> perhaps with 'e', perhaps even something like {HIq vItlhob}/I request
> liquor.  

Perhaps the reason Okrand included "request, plead, ask" is 
because the object can be the thing or act requested, the person 
asked, or nothing at all (plead).

> (b) {yu'} is ask question(s) of a person, interrogate.  The
> questions probably would be unstated, the object is the person asked.  

I also suspect that to fully {yu'} someone, you need pain sticks 
and a good mind sifter... I definitely sense a greater degree of 
coercion in {yu'} than {tlhob}.

> (c)
> {ghel} is asking a question, probably as a verb of saying.  Maybe he saw
> these as distinct in this fashion and determined we needed {ghel}.  Or
> maybe not, this is just a germ of an idea.

While I do believe {ghel} makes an excellent verb of speech, 
quoting a question, I also see {tlhob} as an excellent verb of 
speech quoting a question. I wonder about {yu'}, however.

Remember that a quotation is not the object of the verb of 
speech, so it does not need to perfectly fit that English link 
which does not exist in Klingon.

Then again, we don't know that one does not simply {jatlh} a 
question...

What did Okrand use in his joke about the rube asking how to get 
to the Great Hall? Hmmm. I have it:

lutlhob naDevvo' vaS'a'Daq majaHlaH'a'?

This is clearly the use of {tlhob} in direct quotation. The 
object is the person being asked, since "they asked him" = {lu-}.

So, we have at least one canon example and it fits my 
expectations for this sort of thing. Okrand can easily come up 
with another example (and maybe already has and I have not found 
it yet), but this much seems nailed down.

So, does my model of all this work for you?
 
> ~mark

charghwI'

Back to archive top level