tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Nov 25 15:00:51 1997

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Re: (KLBC) vIqaDmo' Qov QInvam vIqon

HomDoq wrote:
> I suggested:
> > > {nguvlu'} something is painted
> > > {vInguvmoHlu'} I cause something to be painted
> > > 
> Qov corrected me:
> > I know charghwI' knows his {-lu'} better than that, so I'm going 
> > to step away from the 'objectless' question and explain plain 
> > old {-lu'} to anyone who has been confused by all this ranting. 
> > What is below is nothing new, not controversial, just an 
> > explanation of {-lu'} the way it appears in TKD.
> so, basically, you're saying that for {-moH}/{-lu'} there's an 
> order of precedence when you analyze <verb>moHlu' in that you 
> ALWAYS apply the {-moH} before the {-lu'}, right?

Well, yes, if that's what makes you come up with the accepted 
answer.  I don't quite understand how else you could apply {-lu'}, 
regardless of what order you did it in.  The presence of {-lu'} 
always makes the prefix indicate the object of the sentence.  I 
acknowledge that as a beginner you have to take words one syllable at 
a time, so let me try to follow your logic.

vIleghmoHlu'

vI- I - it
legh - see
-moH - cause
-lu' - makes prefix indicate object of indefinite subject

Interpreting {-moH} first:

vIleghmoH  + {-lu'}
I make him/her/it see + {-lu'} ---> reverse the sense of 
the prefix to indicate the object of an indefinite subject
= [indefinite subject] causes ME to be see

Interpreting {-lu'} first --->

vIleghlu' + {-moH}

indefinite subject sees me  + {moH} --> add causation
= [indefinite subject] MAKES me see

I can't twist it to do anything else.  Maybe you are thinking that 
{-lu'} has the ability to reverse something else besides the 
direction of the prefix?  It doesn't.  It simply makes the subject 
indefinite -- therefore nothing else can go in the subject slot -- 
and causes the prefix to be interpreted differently.

> but is there any such order for, e.g., {-nIS}/{-moH}?
> can <verb>nISmoH mean both
> 
> "she makes him need to verb" AND
> "he needs to make her verb"
> 
> or can it be only one of them and if so which one?

THIS question I understand perfectly, and the answer is that 
it can be either.  This ambiguity is seen often with suffixes 
combined with {-moH}.  Beginners often want to say {*vISay'moHnIS} 
but the rules dictate and Okrand says {vISay'nISmoH} for "I need to 
wash it."  Likewise {DuSopqa'moH}: Did he resume making you eat or 
did he make you resume eating?  Depends.  Like "he made me eat again" 
you can't really tell.  If it is necessary to distingush you could 
say {bISopqa' 'e' raD} or {bISop 'e' raDqa'}.  (Or {tungHa'qa'} or 
{ra'qa'} or whatever form of compulsion he used.) 

> > For practice, rewrite these sentences so they have the same 
> > object, but an indefinite subject, using {-lu'}. Careful! I've 
> > included some trick ones.
> >
> I'll try..

HovqIj beat you to it, but you had no problem with those.

jIbel.  Hol veHmeyvaD ghoHtaHvIS po'wI'pu' Hol botlh ghojlI'chugh 
latlhpu' vaj lo'laH wanI'.

> > veS tIvbe'law'taH roghvaH
> veS tIvbe'lu'law'taHchugh, nuch Dalu'!

HeghlI'mo' ghupu' 'IQ chaH.

In your subject:
> (KLBC) vIqaDmo' Qov QInvam vIqon

You should say {muqaDmo'}, "she challenged me."

- Qov

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