tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Nov 18 21:05:30 1997

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Re: maHagh tlhInganpu' (was:Klingon words for "subject"...)

ja'pu' SuStel:
>You cannot say "we Klingons" in Klingon.  You cannot say {maHagh
>tlhInganpu'} for "We Klingons laugh."  It just don't work that way!

I wouldn't go so far as to forbid this kind of usage, but it sure doesn't
sound right to me either.

ja' ter'eS:
>Just to pick a nit:  How do we know it doesn't work that way?  Is
>it explicitly forbidden by canon?  It seems like simple apposition
>to me (to those who reply that apposition needs two nouns, just
>think of this as a briefer form of {maHagh maH tlhInganpu'}).  Why
>isn't this phrase legal: {bIQIp SoH qoH} "You, fool, are stupid."

This phrase *is* legal, but not necessarily as apposition.  It follows
the pattern of direct address:  "*You* are stupid, fool."  Perhaps
direct address is a form of apposition, but I doubt it.  TKD 5.6 says
that the word used in direct address may come either before or after
the sentence.  From this explanation, I infer that this is a special
case used only with second person subject.  There's nothing in TKD
that even hints that a similar usage can be applied to first person.

If 5.6 had said something like "The name or other noun used in direct
address follows the verb, acting as its subject" then I'd be quite
willing to entertain analogous constructions for first person phrases.
But that's not what it says.

>I can imagine a situation in which some Klingons are in a room with
>Ferengi, Humans, etc.  Someone comments that a dangerous situation is
>about to occur.  A Klingon replies {Qobmo' maHagh tlhInganpu'}.  To
>simply say {Qobmo' maHagh} might imply that everyone in the room laughs at
>danger, whereas our Klingon wants to emphasis that just the Klingons
>are so cool.

The answer is simple.  He merely replies {Qobmo' Hagh tlhInganpu'}.

>Sure, I can live without it, but if nothing forbids it, what's wrong
>with using it?

It's confusing and jarring and it grates on the ears of several people
who consider themselves very fluent in Klingon, that's what's wrong with
it. :-)  Seriously, this sort of usage is going to call lots of attention
to itself whenever I see it.  I'll be a good net.neighbor and ignore it
most of the time, but until there's some canon one way or the other, it'll
be an irritation to me.

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