tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Nov 06 22:04:51 1997
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Re: Sentence as Object
- From: [email protected]
- Subject: Re: Sentence as Object
- Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 01:04:39 -0500 (EST)
In a message dated 97-11-06 08:24:54 EST, ghunchu'wI' writes, answering
peHruS:
<< If you try to use a question to translate this idea, it doesn't work.
{Sop 'Iv 'e' vISovbe'} tries to say "I don't know that who ate it." You
agree that {'e'} refers to the entire preceding sentence, right? But the
idea we're trying to translate wants to refer only to the person who ate.
In Klingon grammar, that is done by making the person who ate the head
noun of a relative clause. Using a question as the object of a sentence
doesn't magically make the second sentence consider only a part of the
question. Substituting the answer for the question doesn't help, either.
The idea still wants a single noun as its object, not a complete statement.
Using {'e'} is not appropriate; using {-bogh} is.
>>
I think I have found YOUR problem. You are tyring to say that {'e'}
translates as "that" or "which" or "who", for example. This is not what TKD
6.2.5 says. The section explicitly states that Klingon uses two separate
sentences. The first sentence may be a statement including Object, Verb and
Subject, from the evidence presented in TKD's examples. The second sentence
also has an Object, but that Object is {'e'}. This {'e'} refers back to the
entire first sentence.
But, we should not try to say that the first sentence IS the Object of the
second sentence, even though the section is entitles Sentences As Objects.
By the special rules of Klingon grammar, {'e'} REFERS to the entire first
sentence.
Thus, to Klingons, it does not matter what type of sentence the first
sentence is; it does matter that it is a sentence.
Okay, let's summarize. {qagh Sop 'Iv 'e' vISovbe'} does NOT mean "I do not
know WHO eats the qagh." Rather, it means "Who eats the qagh? I do not know
that." Similarly, {Duj legh loD 'e' Sovbe' yaS} does NOT mean "The officer
knows THAT the man sees the ship." Rather, it means "The man sees the ship;
I know that." Let's look at the TKD example {qama'pu' DIHoH net Sov}, which
might have been punctuated in King James' time as "One knows: we kill
prisoners." Also, {yaS qIppu' [ghaH] 'e' vIlegh} renders as "I see: he hit
the officer."
As a matter of fact, even {qalegh vIneH} is two separate sentences (viz TKD
p67). Klingon just does not use {'e'} with {neH}.
Now, let's go a big step further: discourse. {qaja'pu' HIqaghQo'} means, of
course, "I told you, 'Don't interrupt me!'" For those who have been follow
MO's explanations that the sentence spoken (the discourse) is NOT the Object
of the verb of speaking, in this case {ja'}, this should be a little easier.
You have accepted the fact that we say {jIjatlh: jaghpu' HoH tlhInganpu'}
rather than {jaghpu' HoH tlhInganpu' vIjatlh} as if {jaghpu' HoH tlhInganpu'}
were the Object of {vIjatlh}.
maSovchu'meH mangachchuqjaj
chaq tugh maHvaD QIj MO
peHruS