tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Nov 06 05:18:16 1997
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Re: Sentence as Object
ja' peHruS:
>According to TKD, Sentence As Object is that which {'e'} represents. TKD
>does NOT say that the sentence must be a statement, nor that it must not be a
>question. TKD explicitly states that the "sentence" is the object.
Good. You accept the basic premise; now we just have to lead you through
the logic -- again -- which shows that using a pseudogrammatical "question
as object" construction is wrong for "I don't know who ate the chocolate."
>We do not need to take just one word of the first sentence and say that the
>Klingon pronoun {'e'} does/does not refer to it. {'e'} refers to the first
>sentence, in its entirety, no matter what kind of sentence that is.
Good. You also accept the strict interpretation of the basic premise. Why
can't you then see that it keeps things from working the way you are trying
to use them?
"I don't know who ate the chocolate." ** THERE IS NO QUESTION HERE! **
There is a statement which can be broken down into "I don't know X" where
X represents "the person who ate the chocolate". The English word "who"
in this sentence is *not* asking a question. It does *not* carry the same
idea as the Klingon word {'Iv}. "Who" here is an English relative pronoun
whose meaning is carried in Klingon grammar by the verb suffix {-bogh}.
If you try to use a question to translate this idea, it doesn't work.
{Sop 'Iv 'e' vISovbe'} tries to say "I don't know that who ate it." You
agree that {'e'} refers to the entire preceding sentence, right? But the
idea we're trying to translate wants to refer only to the person who ate.
In Klingon grammar, that is done by making the person who ate the head
noun of a relative clause. Using a question as the object of a sentence
doesn't magically make the second sentence consider only a part of the
question. Substituting the answer for the question doesn't help, either.
The idea still wants a single noun as its object, not a complete statement.
Using {'e'} is not appropriate; using {-bogh} is.
>That is the beauty. Klingon does not even follow the same thinking patterns
>English grammar does. (Grammar is a word you use.)
Yes, Klingon and English grammar are distinct. The fact that English uses
the same sequence of letters to spell both a question word and a relative
pronoun should not confuse you into trying to use Klingon question words as
if they were Klingon relative pronouns.
Look at Spanish -- the situation is a *little* easier to distinguish. The
question words are spelled with accented vowels; the relative pronouns are
not. I don't know enough about other languages to give further examples.
>Okay, we need to follow grammar. I am pointing out that the grammar rule for
>Klingon grammarians really has been recorded for us in TKD.
The status of questions as sentences is not an issue. Misusing a question
as a noun-qualifying clause is what we're trying to stop.
-- ghunchu'wI'