tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Jun 06 06:57:33 1997

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RE: KLBC -vIp, -moH - was Re: jajlo'



[email protected] on behalf of Neal Schermerhorn wrote:

> ghItlh SI'IluD
> 
> >>>>
> >..yInuchQo'! SuDnIS SuvwI'pu' - vIlughHa'vIpbe'!
> ><<<
> >bIlughHa'vIpbe'bej! {{;-)
> >DIp 'oHtaH <nuch>'e'
> 
> bIlugh 'ej chIch jIQagh 'e' vIja'chugh jInep

Remember, if you're using a verb of saying, you never use {'e'}.  My theory 
(which seems to be gaining popularity recently) is that the quotation is *not* 
the object of the sentence, but rather, another sentence jammed onto one end.  
See TKD 6.2.5.

Removing the {'e'}, we get

bIlugh 'ej chIch jIQagh qaja'chugh jInep
You're right, and if I told you I erred on purpose, I'd be lying.

> ta'meywIj bonuDchu' 'ej *tulughmoHvIpbe' - 
> nuchpu' tlhIHbe'bej!
> 
> Question: in the marked word, the suffix order is incorrect, but apparently 
> necessary.
> 
> tulughvIpbe'moH - all of you cause me to not be afraid to be correct
> *tulughmoHvIpbe' - all of you are not afraid to cause me to be correct
> 
> If *lughmoH - correct (v) (t) was in the lexicon, the structure above would
> be 
> clearly correct. But it is not, and I do not know a better way to say "you 
do 
> not fear correcting me" since there is no verb "be afraid" - just the pesky 
> -vIp verb suffix.

Before I answer this, let me show you another example, one which we have seen 
in canon.

jIbwIj vISay'nISmoH
I must wash my hair now.

Literally, it is "I cause my hair to need to be clean," which is not what's 
happening.  It would seem as if we need the order {-moHnIS}.  The simple fact 
is, this is not allowed.  Suffix order MUST be obeyed.

So how do we distinguish those two meanings above?  I'm not sure.  I can think 
of instances where either may be useful (though, you might consider using 
{tungHa'} for the first meaning).

Perhaps it isn't important.  A language sometimes has its vague points, where 
pure logic won't be followed.  It may be that context is the key.

Consider the sentence, "I read the book."  Is that present or past tense?  
Without context, you cannot tell.  But without context, it doesn't matter 
anyway!

-- 
SuStel
Beginners' Grammarian
Stardate 97428.9


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