tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Jun 03 06:18:28 1997
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Re: jajlo'
- From: "William H. Martin" <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: jajlo'
- Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 09:18:25 -0400 (EDT)
- In-Reply-To: <[email protected]> from "Oliver Stoll" at Jun 3, 97 01:54:59 am
According to Oliver Stoll:
>
> Robyn Stewart wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Every single instance of {ja'} with an object used by Okrand has
> > > had the person being told something as the object. The thing said
> > > is not the object...
> >
> > DaH vImulqang.
> >
> > The only meaning tell and report have in common is transitive, with
> > the report as the object. I argue that this, too, is a valid use of
> > ja'. I think the 'report recipient as object' use is one of those
> > 'indirect object as object' uses that Marc keeps dropping on us, like
> > qanob, and that the 'normal' meaning is the one tell and report have
> > in common.
The difference here is that there has never been a canon use of
{ja'} other than as a verb of speech, and except for the use of
{Hol} as the object of {jatlh}, we have not been given any
examples of verbs of speech used in any way other than direct
quotation. In all examples of direct quotation so far, the
object has been the person addressed. There have been no
exceptions (other than Hol jatlh).
> Using {ja'} as to "tell somebody about something", where the thing
> being reported is the direct object is exactly the same conclusion
> which I came to last night as I tried to translate the first verse
> of the "Nibelungenlied" into Klingon. That Okrand gives us "tell"
> and "report" both as valid translations for {ja'} is an indicator
> for that fact. Consider the english sentence:
>
> Starbase I to HQ: Starbase I reports 3 incoming vessels.
>
> The starbase there is "telling the HQ about 3 incoming vessels",
> which is exactly what both the words "tell" and "report" indicate
> for me in TKD for how to use {ja'}.
Ah, but you are using indirect quotation and paraphrasing.
Klingon does not, so far, show any knowledge that such ideas
exist. If you quote, you quote. If you don't quote, you just
state. You don't talk about quoting. That's the kind of vague,
wittering jibberish that makes Klingons reach for their blades.
> Furthermore, both "tell" and
> "report" take the person being spoken to as indirect object which
> I take as indicator to use "vaD" to reach that person:
You are ignoring the basic sentence structure of a Klingon
quotation as we have had it shown to us up to this point. A
Klingon quotation consists of two grammatically independent
sentences with either sentence coming first. One sentence is
the verb of speaking with its subject and object (being the
person addressed). The other sentence is a direct quote of the
person being quoted. There is (in TKD and other canon) no
punctuation separating these two sentences.
And so far as we've been shown, there are no alternatives for
forming quotations.
> QovvaD wanI' vIja'pu'.
>
> as in "I have told Qov about the event", or "I have reported the
> event to Qov".
According to what we've been shown up to this point, this
sentence is gibberish. It looks to me like:
I have told her, "The situation for Qov."
> QetlhIS
charghwI'