tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Jul 03 14:02:39 1997

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Re: Okrand on /-vam/



I have not been able to access MSN for over a week. jIHvaD
*Okrand* mu'mey Da'angpu'mo' qatlho'!

I really like Okrand's answer to this as well. It explains the
use of {jajvam} which had disturbed me so much in {HeghmeH QaQ
jajvam}, yet leaves open the superior time stamping
capabilities of the language to more than compensate for the
lack of tense, plus the unexpected bonus of a clear way to say,
"this year, this month, this week", etc.

charghwI'

According to d'Armond:
> 
> More from Okrand on MSN.  The original question from charghwI' is below.
> 
> "Marc Okrand" <[email protected]> wrote in article <01bc851d$58cff220$LocalHost@marcokra>...
> > Regarding "tonight" and so forth, I'd go along with your suggestion:
> > 
> > DaHjaj ram "tonight" (literally "today night" or "today's night")
> > 
> > DaHjaj po "this morning" (literally "today morning" or "today's morning")
> > 
> > DaHjaj pov "this afternoon" (literally "today afternoon" or "today's
> > afternoon")
> > 
> > DaHjaj DungluQ "this noon" (literally "today noon" or "today's noon") 
> > 
> > DaHjaj ramjep "this midnight" (literally "today midnight" or "today's
> > midnight")
> > 
> > DaHjaj pemjep "this midday" (literally "today midday" or "today's midday") 
> > 
> > (The phrases "this noon," "this midnight," and "this midday" are a little
> > awkward in English -- we'd probably say "today at noon," "tonight at
> > midnight," "today in the middle of the day" or something -- but in Klingon,
> > they fall right into place.)
> > 
> > In Klingon, you could even say DaHjaj pem "today's daytime," which would
> > probably be typically contrasted with DaHjaj ram "today's night" (or
> > "tonight").
> > 
> > wa'leS po "tomorrow morning," cha'leS po "the morning of the day after
> > tomorrow" (literally "two-days-from-now morning"), and so on work quite
> > nicely.
> > 
> > Adding -vam "this" to most words designating fixed periods of time seems to
> > be the only way to indicate "current."  Thus the current year or "this
> > year" is DISvam (referring, of course, to a Klingon year, or DIS), the
> > current month or "this month" is jarvam (jar "[Klingon] month"), and the
> > current week or "this week" is Hoghvam (Hogh "[Klingon] week").  There
> > don't seem to be special words for "the current year" and so forth
> > comparable to DaHjaj "the current day" or "today."  DaHjaj seems to be
> > formed of the adverbial DaH "now" plus the noun jaj "day," a unique type of
> > formation as far as I know.  It is perhaps by analogy to DISvam, jarvam,
> > etc. -- all formed by simply adding a noun suffix to a noun -- that
> > Klingons also refer to the current day as jajvam "this day" (jaj "day,
> > period from dawn to dawn").
> > 
> > Though they both can be translated "today," DaHjaj and jajvam are not quite
> > interchangeable.  As the time element in a sentence, DaHjaj (and not
> > jajvam) is used:
> > 
> > 	DaHjaj romuluSngan vIHoHpu' "today I killed a Romulan"
> > 	(DaHjaj "today," romuluSngan "Romulan," vIHoHpu' "I have killed 	him/her")
> > 
> > As the subject of a sentence, on the other hand, jajvam is more typically
> > found:
> > 
> > 	nI' jajvam "this day is long"
> > 	(nI' "[it] is long [in duration], jajvam "this day")
> > 
> > though DaHjaj is not impossible:
> > 
> > 	nI' DaHjaj "today is long"
> > 	(nI' "[it] is long [in duration], DaHjaj "today")
> > 
> > DaHjaj also behaves as a noun (as opposed to an adverbial element) in such
> > noun-noun constructions as  DaHjaj gheD "today prey" or "today's prey," a
> > term often heard in Klingon restaurants with a meaning comparable to "catch
> > of the day."
> > 
> > Phrases such as jajvam po "this day morning" or "this morning" are not
> > common, but they're not ungrammatical either.
> > 
> > 
> > Will Martin <[email protected]> wrote in article
> > <01bc7b9b$1f4e3e20$7666c5cd@will>...
> > > Marc,
> > > 
> > > How would you suggest we convey the terms "tonight", "this morning", etc.
> > I
> > > was personally drawn toward sticking to time-centric terms rather than
> > > spacial-centric grammar and say {DaHjaj ram} and {DaHjaj po} rather than
> > > {ramvam} and {povam}, both because they didn't mix concepts of time and
> > > space and because it would naturally be extendable in the form of {wa'leS
> > > ram} or {wejHu' po}, while the use of {-vam} does not have that property.
> > > Meanwhile, in {HeghmeH QaQ jajvam}, you clearly showed that {-vam} works
> > > with time related terms.
> > > 
> > > So, I'm open. What's your preference?
> > > 
> > > charghwI'
> > > 
> > 
> 
> 



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