tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Dec 25 10:47:34 1997
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Re: tera'Daq qoD leng
- From: "David Trimboli" <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: tera'Daq qoD leng
- Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 00:52:55 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Boozer <[email protected]>
To: Multiple recipients of list <[email protected]>
Date: Wednesday, December 24, 1997 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: KLBC: tera'Daq qoD leng
>SuStel wrote:
>: From: Steven Boozer <[email protected]>
>: > tera' botlhDaq leng "journey to the-Earth's-center"
>:
>: Here's another Krankor Trick, and I'd just assume zap it out of
existence.
>: Most evidence and my own gut feeling tell us that you cannot have a Type
5
>: suffix on the first noun in a phrase like that. Time to recast.
>
>I agree, which is why I moved {-Daq} to the end of the N1-N2 phrase (i.e.
>attached to N2): {tera' botlhDaq}. Or am I misunderstanding what you mean
by
>"first noun" here?
Yes. You have {tera' botlhDaq} "to the center of the Earth" modifying
{leng} "journey." Now, if you were to consider {leng} as a verb, "they
journey to the center of the Earth" is grammatically correct. I don't
believe this is what you were suggesting. You were suggesting that {tera'
botlhDaq leng} is a legitimate noun phrase, whereas I see it as either
ungrammatical or only a sentence fragment (one which is NOT a noun phrase).
>: tera' botlh leng
>: Earth center journey
>:
>: tera' botlh He
>: Earth center course
>
>Even more confusing. This is the "Earth's center's journey" (i.e. the
>journey made *by* the Earth's center) and the "Earth's center's course"
>respectively. Planetary interiors do not themselves travel.
Yes, which is why I looked for alternatives. Here's another:
tera' botlhDaq pawmeH leng
journey for the purpose of arriving at Earth's center
This time the Type 5'd noun phrase is modifying a verb, not a noun, and so
it's not a problem.
>: If that's too vague for you, make it a sentence (what's the hang-up with
>: translating noun phrase titles as noun phrases in Klingon?):
>
>What's the hang-up with avoiding noun phrases (verbless sentence fragments)
>as titles or labels in Klingon? Okrand uses them as titles for TKW and the
>Skybox cards.
Okrand only comes up with title translations when the title is easy to
translate. He doesn't give translations for "Conversational Klingon,"
"Power Klingon," "Immersion Studies," or "Language Lab." He also didn't
translate "Klingon for the Galactic Traveler" into Klingon. Many people
started to translate it as {qIb lengwI'vaD tlhIngan Hol}, but this suffers
from exactly the same problem that your translation for "Journey to the
Center of the Earth" does: it's got a Type 5'd noun phrase modifying another
noun phrase. When I translate it, I say {qIb lengwI' tlhIngan Hol}
"Galactic Traveler's Klingon."
Okrand has *not* translated any titles with Type 5'd nouns modifying other
nouns.
tlhIngan tIgh: SuvwI' DevmeH paq
Klingon Custom: Book for Guiding Warriors -- noun phrase, but grammatical
SP1: Qo'noS wo'
Kronos Empire -- noun phrase, but grammatical
SP2: SuvwI' taj
Warrior's Knife -- noun phrase, but grammatical
SP3 tlhIngan wIy
Klingon's Tactical Display -- noun phrase, but grammatical
S7 qIvo'rIt pagh'e'
K'Vort *Pagh* -- noun phrase, but grammatical
(Note that it loses the "class" element of the original.)
S8 He's got "bat'telh Klingon Sword of Honor," but it's still a noun
phrase, but grammatical
S9 qaSDI' nenghep
When the Age of Ascension Occurs -- verb clause, grammatical
(Original English is "Age of Ascension," so Okrand is ADDING information to
the translation.)
S13 tlhIngan qorDu' potlh
Klingon Family's Important Things -- noun phrase, but grammatical
S14 tlhIngan nISwI' beH
Klingon Disruptor Rifle -- noun phrase, but grammatical
(not Klingon's Disruptor's Rifle, by the way)
S15 tlhIngan may'Duj, qItI'nga
Klingon Battle Cruiser, K'Tinga -- noun phrases in apposition, but
grammatical
(Again, loses the "class" from the original)
S19 QumwI'
Communicator -- noun
S20 Ha'quj
Klingon Sash -- noun
S21 Soj
Food -- noun
(Loses the "Klingon Food" original, should be {tlhIngan Soj})
S25 tlhIngan vaS'a'
Klingon Great Hall -- noun phrase, but grammatical
S26 lurSa' be'etor je
Lursa and B'Etor -- nouns in conjunction, effectively a noun
S27 Qo'noS
Kronos -- name, effectively a noun
(The original read "Klingon Homeworld," but Okrand did not translate it that
way.)
Deep Space Nine card 99
Qu'
Mission -- noun
In conclusion: I'm not saying that Klingons don't use nouns or noun phrases
as names or titles -- indeed, the evidence above shows that noun phrases
seem to be quite popular. However, I do insist that if a noun phrase is
insufficient to give the thing a title (by grammar or other reasons), then a
verb-oriented translation is in order. {ghobchuq loDnI'pu'}.
>: tera' botlh ghoSlu'
>: Someone unspecified heads for Earth's center.
>: (More or less translates exactly as "Journey to the center of the
Earth.")
>:
>: Or you can elaborate on the subject, if you like. Or add a bit of
meaning
>: not in the original:
>:
>: tera' botlh ghoSlu'lI'
>: Someone unspecified is heading for Earth's center.
>
>Adding "meaning not in the original" is the sign of a poor translator.
Then I shall withdraw this suggestion, though it *was* placed at the end for
a reason.
>In this particular case, for example, your
>"solution" is inappropriate since the characters are not unspecified in the
>original but are eventually named.
I believe you are mistaking a grammatical device for meaning. In {tera'
botlhDaq ghoSlu'}, the subject is unspecified *in this sentence only*.
"Journey to the Center of the Earth" doesn't specify who's journeying, but
that doesn't mean that no one is or that that information remains
unspecified. If the title had originally been "The Center of the Earth is
Journeyed To," you couldn't say that the passive voice prevents the
journeyers from being known.
{tera' botlhDaq ghoSlu'} indicates that someone makes the journey, but at
the time you state the title, the identities of those people are irrelevant.
When it becomes necessary, you'll be told exactly who it is.
>If you must, make it an active phrase
>(particularly if the book was written in the first person) which still
>avoids naming the protagonists:
>
> tera' botlhDaq maghoSlI'
> We head for Earth's center.
Umm . . . in my suggestion I was referring to {-lI'} as being the additional
information. {-lu'} had nothing to do with it. I'm sorry I was unclear.
However, this seems to show that my suggestion of {tera' botlhDaq
ghoSlu'lI'} does NOT add inappropriate information in your opinion. I was
concerned that {-lI'} was an element not specified exactly in the original,
but you seem to have no problem with it. My miscommunication has brought up
some interesting things!
>On the first noun, no; on the second, yes.
You agree with this! Good! Here's how your suggestion comes out:
(tera' botlh) NOUN 1
(leng) NOUN 2
(tera' botlh)Daq (leng)
This is what I am arguing against.
>Here are a couple of examples
>which are nearly identical to the one under discussion:
>
> 'Iw bIQtIqDaq jIjaH
> I travel the River of Blood. TKW
This is NOT the same thing, because a VERB is being modified by the Type 5'd
noun, not another noun.
> 'Iw bIQtIqDaq bIlengjaj
> May you travel the river of blood! PK
Ditto.
> 'ej yo' qIjDaq vavpu'ma' DImuv
> we ... join our fathers in the Black Fleet (Anthem)
Ditto again.
>Still more examples of Type 5 suffixes on the second noun of a N1-N2
phrase:
>
> jaghpu' yuQmeyDaq
> at/to the enemies' planets TKD
But since this phrase isn't modifying another noun, there's no problem, and
it's not the same thing.
> loS... qIb HeHDaq, 'u' SepmeyDaq Sovbe'lu'bogh lenglu'meH He ghoSlu'bogh
>retlhDaq 'oHtaH
> It waits... on the edge of the galaxy, beside a passage to unknown
regions
>of the
> universe. DSN99
> wa' Dol nIvDaq matay'DI' maQap
> We succeed together in a greater whole. TKW
>
> juHqo' Qo'noSvo' loghDaq lengtaHvIS tlhInganpu'
> During the (aggresive) expansion of the Klingon people from their
>homeworld of Kronos into space... SP1
>
> Hoch tlhIngan DujDaq So'wI' jomlu'
> All Klingon vessels are equipped with a cloaking device S33
All modifying verbs, not nouns. These are NOT the same problem.
>I really don't see the problem here.
I think it has been a miscommunication between us.
SuStel
Stardate 97982.9