tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Sep 02 09:58:18 1996

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Re: KLBC question

At 09:56 AM 8/28/96 -0700, KATIE MONCELSI wrote:
>tlhIngan 'e' nID jaH "in" jIH.


Well, I'm glad you tried this in Klingon... You can't learn to speak it if
you don't try!  ...but you have a number of problems in here.  Let's take a
look at them.


Before I give them to you, though, I would like to say this:  I made some
rather lengthy comments on this, and, since it IS your first sentence, I
don't want you to get discouraged, because I made so many corrections!
Unfortunately, this invloves some of the more complicated grammar in
Klingon, and EVERYONE wants to try to say it.  You made a good attempt (the
fact that you tried it is impressive!) at a difficult concept to express.
Your next sentence was better (because it was simpler).  If you read through
what I say, and understand it (and ASK if you don't!), I am sure you will
pick up the language! ...you just need to start with simplier concepts.


First, what you have here makes no sense according to the Klingon rules of
grammar (but I think I see what you were trying to do).  You have two verbs
<nID> and <jaH> right next to each other, and neither has a type 9 suffiz,
nor could either one be an adjective.  While this may happen in English, it
doesn't in Klingon.  I think your error was that you were trying to
translate word-for-word.  This is as much an error in Klingon as it is in
any other language.  The word "going" in your English helps to indicated
tense, which Klingon does not have.  The word <jaH> means "to go", as in "We
are going to the store".  It does not mean "going" as in "I am going to play
with my pet"... the English word "going" is noe indicating future tense.  So
<jaH> doesn't belong in your sentence at all:

        tlhIngan 'e' nID "in" jIH.

This is a bit more intelligable (from the Klingon-grammar standpoint).  At
this point, I'm going to have to alter the wording of your original sentence
a little bit.  This is called "recasting".  We recast our sentences,
sometimes, because although we can express a given concept in Klingon, the
"literal" translation may not match what we first put down in English--this
is true of ANY language.  As charghwI' (one of the more prominent posters on
this list) once said (and I believe still does say!):  Think of languages as
sets of jigsaw-puzzles.  If you want to put together the Klingon puzzle, you
can't take the Klingon pieces (words), and just push them into available
locations (grammar) of your English one!  You have to put the Klingon pieces
together according to the rules of the Klingon puzzle.

Sometimes, when we first express a thought, and say "I want to translate
this to Klingon", we have to go back to the *concept* behind the thought,
and either re-phrase it in such a way that we CAN put it into Klingon words,
or (if you can) simply take the original phrase and put it together using
the Klingon words and grammar (this is another explaination why your <jaH>
didn't need to be there--it looked like you took your English sentnece, and
then looked up each word in the Dictionary, and just put it in place in the
sentence).

So, knowing this, I am going to alter your sentence slightly to "I am going
to try (this message), (while I am using Klingon)".  I put ()'s around the
parts I changed.  Let's do the "to Klingon"/"while I am using Klingon" part
first.

This is really a subordinate clause:  it has it's own subject and verb, but,
unless we take away the "while" part, it is not a complete thought by
iteself.  If it were a complete thought by itself, it would be just "I am
using Klingon".  I mention this, because Klingon makes it very easy for us
to change a complete thought into a partial one:  in this case, we just add
the suffix -taHvIS to the verb, which will make it "while I am using
Klingon".  Please note:  -taHvIS is really TWO suffizes, -taH and -vIS, but
on page 43 near the botom, where -vIS is defined, we see that it is ALWAYS
used with -taH!  It may be useful to think of them as "one" suffix to start
with, as there are only three suffixes which might come between them:  -neS
(the honorific), -qu' (emphatic), and -Qo' (don't/won't).

Let's translate "I am using Klingon".  First, we need the word "to use".
That is <lo'>.  We also need the word for "Klingon", which you have
correctly as <tlhIngan>.  However, that means "a member of the Klingon
race", NOT the Klingon language.  Klingon doesn't make their words for races
do double-duty like English sometimes does (you wouldn't call a Frenchman a
French, would you?  I wouldn't...).  So, you have to indicate that you are
talking about a Klingon's *language*.  The word for "language" is <Hol>...
but where do you put it?  Well, from pages 30 and 31 of the Klingon
dictionary, we can show possession by putting two nouns one right after the
other.  <tlhIngan> and <Hol> are both nouns... so, to show I am talking
about "a Klingon's language", I would say <tlhIngan Hol>.  Finally, you have
to have a verb prefix on <lo'>.  The chart for verb prefixes is located on
page 33 of your Klingon Dictionary.  To find the perfix you need, you need
to know what the subject and the object (if any) of your sentence are.  In
this case, our sentence (or really a PART of a sentence) is "I am using the
Klingon language".  The subject answers the question "Who or what is
<verb>ing?"  "Who is using?"  Well, "I" am using.  The object will answer
the question "Who or what is <subject> <verb>ing?"  "What am I using?"
well, "the Klingon language".  "The Klingon language" is not "I" or "you"...
it is an "it".. and it is not plural, so it is just "it" and not "them".
Looking on the chart, and matching an "I" subject with an "it" object, I get
the verb prefix vI-, which I need to attach to <lo'>:  <vIlo'>.

You seem to have the object-verb-subject word order okay, so, let's just put
this together:

        tlhIngan Hol vIlo'
        "I am using the Klingon Language"

Please notice that you don't need to use the pronoun <jIH> if it is included
with the prefix, which it is.  Most speakers only use the pronoun for
clarity, or emphasis (i.e. "*I* am using Klingon, not you, not him, not her.
ME!" would be <tlhIngan Hol vIlo' jIH>).

Now, remember when I said that if we had a complete sentence in Klingon, it
was easy to make it an incomplete thought?  Well, I didn'tlie to you.  To
change this to "while I am using Klingon", you only need to tack on -taHvIS:

        tlhIngan Hol vIlo'taHvIS
        "while I am using the Klingon Language"

Putting this together with the rest of your original attempt:

        tlhIngan Hol vIlo'taHvIS, 'e' nID "in" jIH

I put the , after that first phrase, because that is what we would do with
that clause in English.

Believe it or not, you are pretty close with this last part!  I suspect you
put the "in" in the wrong place, thouugh... and we had to alter the English
verion a bit, so we don't need that "in" in there:

        tlhIngan Hol vIlo'taHvIS, 'e' nID jIH

That last part you have IS a complete and valid thought, and, while not 100%
grammatically correct, would be understandbale to most speakers here.  It
would translate to "I try that".  In this case, the "that" refers to a whole
previous sentence.  Unfortunately, you don't HAVE a whole previous sentence
to refer to (I'm not sure, but it looked to me that you were trying to use
<'e'> to mean "this", or "this situation".  The use of <'e'> is a bit
complicated, but that isn't how it is used:  it refers back to the last
sentence spoken).  When you say "this", you are *really* zaying, "this
transmission".  Well, we have a word for "data transmission" (you have to
look it up under "data"), and it is <jabbI'ID>.  If you want to specify
*this* transmission, you can put the noun suffix -vam ("this") on it for
<jabbI'IDvam>.  This goes in the object position, which is where you
mistakenly put <'e'>:

        tlhIngan Hol vIlo'taHvIS, jabbI'IDvam nID jIH

The only other thing this sentence needs is a verb prefix on <nID>, to match
the subject and object.  I'm not going to list the questions here again, but
your subject, as you seem to have, is "I", and your object is "this
transmission":  another "it", so it's going to be vI- again:

        tlhIngan Hol vIlo'taHvIS, jabbI'IDvam vInID jIH

Again, the <jIH> on the end is optional; I would generally leave it out, but
this sentence is now correct as it is.

        

>yu'wI' ghaj jIh.


Please remember to capitalIze your "H". {{:)

This sentence was MUCH better than your first attempt, probably because it
was much *simpler*.  That's why I request that you start with simple
concepts, first... if your make one mistake, you dont' frustrated trying to
piece all the rest together.

Unfortuantely, we don't have a word for the noun "question".  When you put
-wI' on a verb, it turns it into "one who/thing that does <verb>".  <yu'wI'>
doesnt' mean "question"... it means "one who questions".  You might use it
to refer to yourself, since you are asking questions, but it doesn't refer
back to the question itself.  You really need to change this so you are
using "question" as a verb--recasting again!  I would change this to "I need
to ask something".  This is likely going to change your verb from <yu'> to
<tlhob> ("to ask").  <yu'> means more like you are interrogating a prisoner,
than simply asking a question.  The word for "something" is <vay'>.  To
express "need", we have special verb suffix, -nIS, which will give us
<tlhobnIS>.  Putting this together, we have:

        vay' tlhobnIS jIH

You seem to have trouble remembering your verb prefixes.  Verb prefizes are
*required*; they are NOT optional:

        vay vItlhobnIS jIH

I'm not going to go into detail how I got the prefix again, expecially since
it is the same one as both the examples above.


>"jav 'Trek' Hov: Hatlh tu'be'" cha'wI' "In".


Once again, you are going for long and involved concepts, and your grammar
is hurting for it.  When you try to translate something long and complicated
like this, Ihave a hard time figuring out what you are doing, even with the
English.

I have NO idea why you have "in" at the end of the sentence.  It doesn't
belong there in either English, or Klingon.

Let's take a look at the movie title first.

First, you are tlking about "Star Trek move #6".  When you are talking about
a specific numbered object (as opposed to the six Star Trek movies all
togther), you have to put the number last:  <"Trek" Hov jav>.  PLEASE don't
use ' (single quotes) around an english word, as they could be confused for
the Klingon character '.  Also, you are talking about a "Trek of the Stars",
as opposed to "the Star's Trek".  I really don't think you can translate
"Star Trek" as <"Hov "Trek">, but that is more accurate than what you had.
You probably would have been better off leaving "Star Trek" together in the
English:

        ""Star Trek" jav: Hatlh tu'be'" cha'wI'

<Hatlh> means "countryside".  I've always understood "Country" in the movie
title to mean something like France, or the United State, or China, etc.

I really hate to do this, but at this point, I really feel I have to say this:

Pick something simpler to translate.  I know people hate translating "Dick
and Jane" level sentences, but what you are trying to translate here uses
much of the more complicated grammar structures.  I can sit here and type
for HOURS explain these... but if you can't remember your verb prefixes, or
understand theproper use of -wI', you aren't going to be able to translate
these concepts just yet.

Please don't get me wrong; you have made an honourable attempt... I don't
want to discourage you, but you really need to focus on basic concepts
again.  That's what the KLBC is FOR.. for conversations.  Tell us about your
day... If you are having trouble translateing something one way, break the
sentence down, like in a reading primer.  Your sentences may not be long and
glamourous, but 1:  we will have a better chance of understanding you, and
2:  it will be a LOT easier for me to help you.  I really hate giving long,
deteailed explainations like this, because I suspect that your main problem
was trying to translate something beyond your level of skill.

*Please* try again!


>paq mu' tlhIngan "in" mu'mey tlhIngan "as" rap mu'mey'a' tlhIngan'a'.
>
>I'm going to try this in Klingon.
>I have a question.
>Are the words in the show "Star Trek Six: THe undiscovered Country.
>Are the Klingon words the same as the words in the Klingon Dictionary.


To answer your question:  If you have the second edition book (which cover,
which a picture of the three Klingons together on the front) then yes, it
does, and yes, they are.  When Marc Okrand created the language, he
"retro-fit" it back to the previous movies, and it was used in ST:VI as well.

If you have the blue book with the warship on the cover, I will happily
trade you a brand-new one for that one... {{:)  (and no, it would not have
the stuff from ST:VI in it).

Um... I just realized... if you are using the blue book, my page references
won't be valid. {{:(


>word book is as close as I can get to dictionary.


We have a word for dictionary!  It is <mu'ghom>.


>Katie
>B'Elanna



--tQ


---
HoD trI'Qal, tlhIngan wo' Duj lIy So' ra'wI'
Captain T'rkal, Commander IKV Hidden Comet
Klingon speaker and net junkie!
HaghtaHbogh tlhIngan yIvoqQo'!  toH... qatlh HaghtaH Qanqor HoD???
monlI'bogh tlhInganbe' yIvoqQo'!  SoHvaD monlI' trI'Qal...

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