tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Mar 11 16:17:43 1996
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Re: KLBC: Q about -lu'
According to Alan Anderson:
>
> charghwI' writes:
> >Think for a minute. You can't use {-lu'} on the second verb in
> >a Sentence As Object construction. It creates grammatical
> >headaches relating to the role reversal of subject and object,
> >thereby placing {'e'} in the subject role (by some
> >interpretations).
>
> Calling this a "role reversal" doesn't sit well with me. {-lu'}
> is labeled as "indefinite subject", not as "passive voice" or as
> "role reversal". I agree with your assessment of the problems
> that occur if one tries to interpret {-lu'} using passive voice
> when the object is {'e'}, but that might just mean that passive
> isn't the right interpretation.
Okay, let's look at the first canonical example of the use of
{-lu'}. Kruge speaks to Valkris and says, {batlh Daqawlu'taH!}
According to the prefix, the subject is "you", but the
non-passive voice translation becomes, "One will remember you
with honor." The word "You" has become the object of the verb.
This is a role reversal. "You" can only possibly remain the
subject in the passive voice translation, "You will be
remembered with honor." (I'm not even sure it is grammatically
the subject even here...)
> >Regardless of the specifics of the fallout of such a
> >construction, Okrnad foresaw the problem and specifically
> >created {net} for any place you'd be tempted to use {'e' Xlu'}.
> >Others gave you examples of use of {net} but did not explicitly
> >tell you that {'e' Xlu'} is illegal. It is.
>
> This is the first time I've *ever* seen {'e' Xlu'} called illegal.
> It's arguably inferior to {net X}, but I don't think it's as bad
> as you make it out to be.
It is illegal. Deal with it. Okrand clearly invented {net} to
avoid {'e' Xlu'}. "One knows that..." is the same as
"... is known". That third person indefinite subject described
in the section on when you should always use {net} pretty much
covers the function of {-lu'}. There is no place to use {'e'
Xlu'} which does not violate the rule which tells you when to
use {net}.
> -- ghunchu'wI' batlh Suvchugh vaj batlh SovchoH vaj
charghwI'
--
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