tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Jul 26 14:15:24 1995
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Re: Re[6]: }}} Victory Song / battle cry
- From: "Mark E. Shoulson" <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: Re[6]: }}} Victory Song / battle cry
- Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 14:15:24 -0400
>From: [email protected]
>Date: Wed, 26 Jul 95 12:06:06 EST
>On Wed July 26 "Mark E. Shoulson" wrote:
>>"Once many ideas are out there," you say. Excellent! So the idea was put
>>out there for a translation, and I put out my opinions/ideas on its
>>quality. If the only "ideas" that are allowed "out there" are ones that
>>say "Yes! Your idea is magnificent!" no matter what was said, then what
>>sort of debate can be had? Debate is a discussion of the merits of
>>various notions, you say. Well, I was discussing the merits of that
>>particular phrase, pointing out in particular that certain merits are
>>lacking. I don't think I was "destroying" any ideas (how could I? Ideas
>>are very hardy things); I was simply putting other ideas on the table to
>>discuss. And I might add, I was doing so because I was *ASKED* to. When
>>someone puts an idea out on the list, that's asking for opinions. For
>>ideas from other people. Should I get your approval for all my ideas and
>>opinions in the future? Now who's destroying ideas?
>Almost everytime I try to suggest something, it gets shot down. This is very
>frustrating and down-right depressing. All I seem to get is criticism. I
>thought the purpose of this list was to encourage the use of tlhIngan Hol. Now,
>I know I'll make grammar mistakes. And I do want help with that. But this was
>a different case.
I'm sorry if it seems to you that everything you say gets shot down. I
assure you I have no vendetta against you, and I get no perverse pleasure
from arguing with you. I don't scan my messages and think, "Aha, another
message from r'Hul, how shall I say she's wrong this time."
>One person asked for suggestions. I was replying to him. I posted my
>suggestion to the list as a catalyst to others, also suggesting different ideas.
> If you do not understand what I was trying to say, ASK! Please do not jump to
>conclusions, and then critise based on those. Simply say, "I don't like this,
>and this is why..." Don't tell me I'm wrong.
Which was, in fact, just what I did. You gave your suggestions, and I said
why they didn't work for me. I said why it was that I thought the
translation was not close or didn't work in the situation.
What would you have me do? Shall I lie about my views, to keep you happy?
What would you learn then? Not a lot. When you ask for opinions, do you
mean "Tell me honestly what you think... but only if what you think is
favorable"? In that case, why bother asking. Seriously, I don't see an
alternative. If you want to know what I think, be prepared for the real
answer. I'm not going to lie and say something I don't believe just
because it will make you feel better. Neither of us would benefit from
that. You wouldn't benefit from whatever insights I might have had, and I
wouldn't benefit from whatever insights you might have that would shoot
down my objections. Nor do I buy "If you don't have something nice to say,
don't say anything." This list exists for the exchange of ideas. If we
limit those exchanges only to support, who would learn?
>No, I do not want to give, nor can I give, approval for others' ideas &
>opinions. Each opinion is valid. I'd like to see more. But with my
>experience, I can see why there aren't more. And that is not <maj>.
"Each opinion is valid".... obviously except mine, when I disagree with
you. I'd like to see opinions too... but not if it means I am enjoined
against voicing mine. Funny thing about asking ideas from as many people
as possible: it includes asking from people you might not want to hear
from.
Look, if people really want me to unsubscribe from the list.... Hrm, I
can't threaten that, since I really DON'T want to unsubscribe. But I don't
think I can stay on and be commanded not to post when asked for an opinion.
Tell me, who *is* permitted to post?
I'm sorry if it seems like I always disagree with you, but... well, it
isn't my fault. I very honestly found myself in disagreement with many of
the things you said. I don't very well see how I could do anything else.
~mark