tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Oct 07 14:27:27 1994

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Re: Good day to die.

According to Thornton Rose:
> 
> chargwI':
> 
> Thank you for your analysis of my attempt at "Today is a good day to die"; I 
> expected that I would not be any closer than anyone else. I liked your 
> discussion of the "to be" usage in thlIngan Hol, too. However, I want to ask 
> some questions about this, to make sure that I am learning how to use 
> tlhIngan Hol correctly.

This kind of dialog is quite welcome.

> 1. "A verb expressing a state of quality can be used immediately following a 
> noun to modify that noun". (TKD 4.4) So, wouldn't "jaj QaQ" mean "good day"?

This is true.

> 2. -vam mean "this" and "jaj" is "day (n)". So, wouldn't j"jajvam" mean 
> "this day"?

I feel uneasy about this because the locative suffix {-vam}
indicates location in space. {jaj} has no location in space. It
has a temporal "location". In English, we mix these two concepts
together all the time. We have no reason that I know of in
Klingon to feel comfortable doing the same. I can put a paper
clip in my hand and say, {mavjopvam} and even though the floor
may be covered with paper clips, you will know to WHICH paper
clip I refer. How do I point to a {jaj}? I can't hold it in my
hand. I can't lean up against it and pat it with my palm. I
can't point to it.

> 3. "... all pronouns (Section 5.1) can be used as verbs ... If the subject 
> is a noun, it follows the third-person ... and takes the 'e' topic suffix." 
> (TKD 6.6). So, wouldn't "'oH jajvam'e'" mean "This day is ..."?

So long as the word after the elipsis is a noun, you do not err
in this analysis.

> 4. The previous questions I had asked myself, which is how I got to:
> 
> HeghmeH jaj QaQ 'oH jajvam'e'.
> For the purpose of dying, today is a good day.

I probably mistook this for the other examples which I believe
omitted the first {jaj}. If all of the examples had the initial
{jaj}, then I apologise for going off the deep end. I thought
what you had said was {HeghmeH QaQ 'oH jajvam'e'}. That would
have been stating the "is" twice, hence my eruption.

I have only two minor, but successfully nagging problems with
this. We already have the word {DaHjaj} which points out which
day we indicate without using the English-centric {jajvam'e'}
that confuses location in space and time. Why insist on using
{jajvam'e'}?

Secondly, Holtej and I argued for a long time over {-meH}, and
he won. It really means "in order that" more than it means "for
the purpose of". It indicates that the action of the main verb
purposefully changes the environment toward accomplishing the
goal of the verb which uses {-meH}. 

In this case, it means that today is a good day in order that
he/she/it/they die(s). Somehow, the day has made a conscious
choice to be good because if it didn't, then maybe it would be
less likely that he/she/it or they would die. Note that when
a verb has {-meH} on the end, it still needs an appropriate
prefix indicating the person and number of the subject.

In case my excessive verbage has put you to sleep, reread the
last sentence in the previous paragraph. It is significant.
~mark has previously stated that Klingon has no infinitives,
but Holtej pointed out that what he REALLY means is that
Klingon verbs must always be conjugated. They must always
indicate a subject, at least as a pronoun implied by the
prefix. This is why, "To be or not to be" is such a lousey
thing to try to translate into Klingon. It does not indicate
who is being.

> I am just way out in left field here?
> 
> But wait... 
> 
> In the process of construction my questions (and, really, am implied 
> argument), I have seen the following:
> 
> HeghmeH QaQ jajvam.
> For the purpose of dying, this day is good.

{HeghmeH} does not mean "for the purpose of dying". It means
"In order that he/she/it/they die(s)". The absence of a prefix
does not mean there is not subject (implied by your "for the
purpose of dying"). It instead indicates the third person
singular or plural subject and no object. {jajvam} is an
English-centric unnecessary recasting of {DaHjaj}. Notice that
{DaHjaj} means, "now day". In time, the current "location" is a
"now", not a "here".

Now I should ask if I "am" the one way off in left field. Time
and space do not use the same kind of locatives in Klingon. The
word {DaHjaj} exists. Why not use it?

Verbs with {-meH} must still indicate a subject with a prefix.
The meaning that best suits it is "in order that". jISopmeH DaH
jIjaH!
> 
> jabbI'ID mev
> Thornton
 
charghwI'

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