tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Mar 31 12:45:43 1994

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Re: Bhagavad Gita chapter 1 (long!)

Hu'tegh! nuq ja' Goran Topic jay'?

Well, someone's gotta do it, and I don't see anyone else doing it, and Goran,
you're finding out what it's like to produce loads of text noone reads, but
here I go...

I'm providing a back translation so we both know we're handling the same
text.

=jatlh *Dar'araS'a'*:
=nuq luta'ta' lalDan DaqDaq, *quru'* yotlhDaq mughbogh Suvqangbogh
=puqloDpu'wI' *panDu'* puqloDpu' je, *Sanjaya'*?

Said D: S, what did my sons and P's sons, willing to fight (and?) translate
at the Guru field, in the religious place, accomplish?

I don't know why they were translating, but I think you're overloading your
relative clauses. This phrase is opaque.

=jatlh *Sanjaya'*:
=mangghom'e' chenmoHbogh *panDu'* puqloDpu' leghDI',
=SovmoHwI'Daj chol ta' *Duryo'Dana'*.

King D approached his teacher, as soon as he saw the army P's sons built.

=3.
=*panDu'* puqloDpu' mangghomvam tIn'e', chenmoHbogh ghojwI'Daj'e'
=*DarupaDa'* puqloD'e', yIlegh, SovchoHmoHwI'wI'.

Too many -'e's. You're conscripting them for both relative clause head marking
and apposition marking. Drop the latter.

Teacher, see this great army of P's sons, which his student, the son of D built.

=4.
=naDev SaHtaH SuvmeH *'arjuna'* *bI'ma'* je rapbogh
=Suvqu'wI'pu' bachwI''a'pu' je, SuvwI''a' *DarupaDa'* je;

The great warrior D, and warriors and shooters resembling A and B are here
to fight.

You used no -'e' marking here. 

=5.
=*DaraS'aketu'* *cheqIta'na'* *qa'SIra'ja'* je HoSqu',
=*purujIt* *quntIbo'ja'* je *Say'bIya'* je yoHqu';

Strong D, C, and K; Brave P, K and S.

Verbless sentence; I don't trust these in Klingon, particularly as the
adjective can be taken as a verb. Prepose "SaH" before each line.

=6.
=*yuDa'manyu'* tIn je, *SubaDra'* puqloD HoS je,
=*DarupaDa'* puqloDpu' je. lupwI' SuvwI' QaQqu' ghaH.

and Big Y, and S's strong son, and D's sons. He is a good transporter's warrior.

Transporter's warrior? And tIn should be Dun, unless referring to physical
size. He should probably be They.

=7.
='ach HoSqu'wI'ma' yItu', SovwI''a'.
=mangpu'wI' la'pu' qaghuHmoH 'e' yIchaw'neS.

But find our strongest man, Wise One. Let me alert my soldiers' commanders.

=8.
=SuSaHtaH reH SuQapbogh SoH *bISma'* je *karna'* je *karpa'* je,
=*'aSwatta'ma'* *wIqarna'* je *So'maDatta'* puqloD je;

You are always present, you who are always victorious, you, B, K, K, A, W,
and S's son.

=9.
=SaHtaH jIHvaD Heghqangbogh Suvqu'wI'pu' law'.
=nuHmey Sar lo'taH 'ej poH nI' SuvwI' ghaH.

And many warriors ready to die for me are present. They use various weapons
and he (?) is a warrior a long time.

It is safer to use "qaStaHvIS poH nI'" than the in all ways undocumented
bare noun, particularly as it doesn't denote a point in time but a duration.
It's not he, but they.

=10.
=HoSmaj'e' Qanqu'bogh *bISma'* juvlaHbe'lu',
=HoSchaj'e' Qanqu'bogh *bI'ma'* juvlaHlu'.

One cannot measure our strength, protected by B. One *can* measure their
power, protected by B.

Power can be protected?

=11.
=DupQu'DaqrajDaq *bISma'*vaD ngaq bonobnISqu'.

Inside your strategic duty place, you must give support to B.

ngaq is not a noun. What's a strategic duty place? Headquarters? I'd say:

DupQu'DaqrajDaq *bISma'* bongaqnISqu'.

=12.
=chuSqu'wI'Daj lo' *bISma'*, *quru'* vavnI',
=*Duryo'Dana'* belqu'moH;

B, grandfather of K, uses his drum. It pleases D.

=13.
='ej HochDaq chuSqu'wI' Sar lo'lu'.

And in everything a variety of drums is used.

Dat is preferable.

=14.
=lupwI''a'Daq vIHmoHbogh HaDI'baHmey chIS ba'ta'
=*ma'Dawa'* *panDu* puqloD je. chuSqu'wI'chaj lo'.

M and the sons of P sat in the great transporter moved by white animals.
They use their drums.

What is a transporter? If a chariot, just call it a Duj.

=15.
=chuSqu'wI' *panchajanya'* lo' nochta', 'ej *De'waDatta'* lo' jonta'wI',
='ej chuSqu'wI''a' *pawuDra'* lo' *bI'ma'* ghungqu'.

The king of sensors uses the drum P, and the capturer uses D, and hungry B
uses the great drum P.

nochta'?

=16.
=*'anantawIjaya'* lo' *yuDIStIra'*'e' *quntI* puqloD'e'.
=*Sugho'Sa'* *manIpuSpaqaw* je lo' *naqula'* *SaHaDe'wa'* je.

Y, son of K uses A. N and S use S and M.

=17.
=chuSqu'wI'chaj lo' bachwI''a''e' *qa'SI'* ta''e', SaD mang Suvbogh
=	*SIqanDI* je,
=*DaraS'aDyumna'* *vIra'ta'* je, *SatyaqI'* QaplaHbe'bogh vay' je,
=18.
=*Darupada'* *DarupadI* puqloDpu' Hoch je,
=*SawbaDra'*'e' ghop'a'Du''e'.

The great shooter, king of K uses his drum, as do S who fights 1000 soldiers,
D and V, S who noone can win, D, and all D's sons, S the big hands.

"S the big hands" is garbled, and unconnected to the previous. You don't
use head marking, which is... hm. You should use jey rather than Qap for
defeat.

=19.
=*Dar'araS'a'* puqloDpu' ghIjqu'
=chal ghor je chuSqu'moHmo'.

It scared the sons of D. It also broke the sky because it was so noisy.

Full stop after ghIjqu'. If ghIjqu' is meant as an adjective, it won't
work, because it's not stative; the sentence would have then become "it even
broke the sky of D's scary sons, because it was noisy" --- which doesn't
make more sense.

=20.
=ta', Qu'meychajDaq *Dar'araS'a'* puqloDpu' leghDI',
=bachnuHDaj tlhapDI', bachrupDI',
=*QISna'* jatlh Degh qengbogh *'arjuna'*'e':

King, when he saw D's sons inside their duties, having taken his bow and
prepared to shoot, A carrying the emblem spoke K.

*QISna'*vaD jatlh. How can they be "in" their duties? "Qu'meychajvaD vum D 
puqloDpu' 'e' leghDI'" 

=21.
=jatlh *'arjuna'*
=QaghlaHbe'wI', cha' mangghom joj jaH lupwI' yIqaSmoHneS,

A said: Unerring one, make my transporter go in the middle of the two armies

--- you left out the 'e'.

=22.
=Qu'meychajDaq Suvqangbogh Hochvam vISuvnISbogh jIleghlaHmeH.

that I may see all those willing to fight inside their duties, which I must
fight.

-meH clauses go *before* the clause they modify. jI- is wrong for vI-. I'd
say this as:

QaghlaHbe'wi', Qu'meychajvaD Suvqangbogh Hochvam vISuvnISbogh vIleghmeH,

cha' mangghomvam joj jaH DujwIj 'e' yIqaSmoH/
cha' manghghomvam jojDaq DujwIj yIjaHmoH.

=23.
=*Dar'araS'a* puqloD qabqu' lubelmoHmeH SuvmeH
=naDev ghombogh vIlegh 'e' yIchaw'neS.

Let me see D's evil sons who met here to fight to please.

Your word order here is English, not Klingon, and I don't understand what
you mean. Perhaps:

naDev belmeH SuvmeH ghompu'bogh D puqloD qab vIlegh 'e' yIchaw'.
Let me see D's evil sons who met here to fight to be pleased (for their 
pleasure).

=24.
=jatlh *Sanjaya'*:
=*ba'rata'* puqloD, jatlhDI' QongnISbe'wI',
=cha' mangghom joj jaH lupwI''a' qaSmoH nochta'.

Said S: son of B, as soon as He who needn't sleep has spoken, the king of
sensors will make the great transportergo between the two armies.

Again, left out the "'e'".

=25.
=*bISma'* *Daro'na'* je ta''a'pu' Hoch je 'etDaq
=jatlh: "ghombogh *quru'*pu' Hoch yIlegh, *parta* puqloD!"

At the fore of all the great kings of B and D, he said: "Look at all the
gurus who have assembled, sons of P".

Should be tIlegh.

=26.
=cha' mangghom jojDaq Qambogh vavpu' vavnI'pu' je
=SovchoHmoHwI'pu' SoSloDnI'pu' loDnI'pu' puqloDpu' puqloD puqloDpu' juppu' je
=be'nalvavpu' QaQwI'pu' je tu' *parta* puqloD.

The sons of P discovered fathers, granddads, teachers, uncles, brothers,
sons, grandsons, friends, fathers in law and good people standing between
the two armies.

Conjunctions are a good thing.

=27.
=Qambogh qorDu'nuvpu' Hochvam leghDI',
=QommoH pung'a', vaj 'IQtaHvIS jatlh:

As soon as he saw all the relatives, pity made him shake, so he spoke sadly:

=28.
=*QISna'*, Suvqangbogh SaHtaHbogh qorDu'nuvpu' Hochvam vIleghDI'
=jotHa'qu' DeSDu'wIj 'uSDu'wIj je, 'ej QaDchoH nujwIj;

K, as soon as I saw all these relatives who are present, who are ready to
fight, my arms and legs were uneasy, and my mouth dried.

=29.
=jotHa' rowIj je, 'ej gheghchoH DIrwIj;
=*ghanDI'wa'* jIchaghtaH, 'ej tujqu' je DIr.

And my trunk was uneasy, and my skin rough. I am dropping G, and my skin
is also hot.

Should be vIchagh.

=30.
=DaH naDev jIQamlaHbe', 'ej jIlIj'egh.
=*qe'DI*HoHwI', Hoch vIleghHa'qu'bej.

I cannot stand here now, and I forget myself. Killer of K, I can't see them
straight.

Should be *qe'DI* HoHwI'.

=31.
=SuvtaHvIS qorDu'wIj nuvpu' jIHoHmo' QaQchoHlaH pagh 'e' vIHar.
=*QISna'*, jIQapmeH jIche'meH jIQuchmeH vIHoHnISchugh vaj Dochvammey vIneHbe'.

While those in my family fight, I believe that if I kill, noone can become good.
K, if I need to kill to be happy (and?) to rule (and?) to win, then I don't
want these things.

I'd say ghu'vammey for Dochmey (physical objects). I'm sure "'ej" between
-meH clauses should be allowed.

=32.
=QuchmoHwI', maHvaD lI''a' wo'? Dun'a' yIn?
=nuvpu'vam HochvaD neH yIn wo' QuchtaHghach je vIneH.

Happy-maker, is an empire useful to us? Is life great? I want for all these
mere people the happiness of the empire of life.

neH *follows* the word it modifies, which would be QuchtaHghach; in any
case, it doesn't mean "only" at all, but "merely". I'd have said:

yIn wo' lutIv nuvpu'vam Hoch, vIneH. pagh latlh vIneH.

=33.
=may'DaqDaq chaH QamtaH, 'ej HeghruptaH 'ej mIp lunobruptaH.
=*maDu*HoHwI', muHoHlaH SovchoHmoHwI'pu' vavpu' puqloDpu' vavnI'pu' je,
=34.
=SoSloDnI'pu' be'nalvavpu' puqloDpuqloDpu' puqloDloDnalpu' je qorDu'nuvpu' je,
='ach vIHoHQo'qu'.

In the place of battle stands them, and they are ready to die, and they are
ready to give wealth. [all these people] can kill me, killer of M, but I
refuse to kill.

QamtaH chaH.

=35.
=leHwI''a', wej 'u' *Dar'araS'a'* puqloDpu' yInmey vItamchugh
=vaj mayon'a'?

Great Maintainer, if I do not yet silence the lives of the universe's sons of
D, will be we satisfied?

(The universe's sons of D?)

=36.
=mayembej HIvwI'pu'vam wIHoHchugh.
=vaj *Dar'araS'a'* puqloDpu' juppu' je qorDu' je DIHoHnISbe'.
=Do'ghachloDnal, chay' DIHoHmo' maQuchchoH?

We certainly sin if we kill these attackers. So I will not kill D's sons and
friends and family. Husband of Fortune, how can we become happy just because
we killed them?

DIHoHchugh. Do'ghachloDnal looks iffy to me, but I won't insist on it.

=37.
=qurqu' chaH, vaj muj qorDu'chaj HoH
=jup yol je 'e' luQub.

They are greedy, so I think killing their family and conflict with their 
friends is wrong. 

=38.
=qorDu' Qaw'taHghach mujqu'.
=qatlh maHeS Dochvam wISovbogh?

The wrong destruction of the family. Why should we commit the crime, who know
this?

A headless relative clause; it'd be much more straightforward to say qatlh
maHeS, ghu'cam wISovtaHvIS? If you want to say "the destruction is wrong",
muj goes to the start of the sentence.

=39.
=qorDu' Qaw'lu'chugh vaj Sab lurDech nI'
='ej lalDan Qawlu' 'ej Harbe'choH qorDu'nuvpu'.

If the family is destroyed, then longtime traditions will decline, religion
will be desroyed, and relatives will become unbelievers.

=40.
=*QISna'*, Harbe'chugh qorDu'nuvpu' vaj Sab qorDu' be'pu'.
=*vraSnI'* puqloD, Dochvammo' boghtaH neHHa'bogh puqpu'.

K, if relatives become unbelievers, then the family's women will decline.
Son of V, because of this thing, unwilling children will be born.

Doch should be ghu'/ wanI'. neHHa' is obscure.

=41.
=qorDu' Qaw'wI' qorDu'nuvpu' yInmey SabchoHmoH puqvam.
=quvHa' no' 'ej chaHvaD Soj bIQ je nob net mev.

These children will start bringing the lives of the relatives of the family's
destroyer into decline. The ancestors will be dishonoured, and one will stop
giving them food and water.

=42.
=nugh nabmey qorDu' lurDech nI' je lonlu' 'e' qaSmoH
=Qaghmo' neHHa'bogh puq boghmoHbogh qorDu' Qaw'wI''e'.

He makes society's plans, and the family's long traditions be abandoned,
because the destroyer of the family who fathered ill-willed children made
a mistake.

=43.
=leHwI''a', ghe''orDaq reH yIn qorDu' lurDech Qaw'bogh
='e' ghojwI' lurDechvo' Qoypu'.

Great Maintainer, he has heard from the traditions of the learners that 
the family's traditions he destroyed will always live in Hell.

I think you meant "qorDu' lerDech Qaw'bogh nuv'e'"

=44.
=ta'Hey wImoj 'ej maQuchqu' wIneHmeH qorDu'nuvpu'ma' DIHoHmo'
=mayemqu' 'e' mawuq 'e' taQqu' jay'.

We become an apparent king and we decide to sin because we kill our relatives
to want to be happy. It wierds that!

Confused grammar. Try:

ta'Hey DImoj, 'ej maQuchqu'meH qorDu'nuvpu'ma' DIHoHmo' mayem 'e' wIwuq.
taQqu' ghu'vam jay'.

=45.
=may'DaqDaq nuH jIghajbe'bogh jIHubbe'bogh muHoHlaH
=nuH ghajbogh *Dar'araS'a'* puqloDpu''e' 'e' vImaS.

I'd rather that D's sons who have weapons be able to kill me, who doesn't
defend, who doesn't have weapons, in the battle field.

Shaky: headless relative clauses, and prefix trouble. I'd say:

nuH vIghajbe'taHvIS, jIHub'eghbe'taHvIS, may'DaqDaq muHoH nuH ghajbogh
D puqloDpu' 'e' vImaS.

=46.
=jatlh *Sanjaya'*:
=may'DaqDaq jatlhDI', lupwI'Daq ba'qa'
='ej bachnuH nIch je roQ 'IQbogh.

S said: as soon as he spoke at the battlefield, he sat back down in his
transporter, and he put down his bow and arrows. Who was sad.

('IQtaHvIS)

=	1) I am only beginning to learn Klingon. My grammar I can't judge on
=my own, but I do feel my vocabulary to be quite limited. So, there are sure
=to be many words that would fit in the text much more neatly than those I
=supplied.

Most of them, I though, did the job fairly well. Your grammar gets confused
at places, but for the most part is quite good. I think you hesitate too
much in using "'ej".

=	4) It would be great to have some way of expressing lineage.
=I thought it would be as important in Klingon as in Indian culture. So, the
=words Kaunteya.h (Kuntii's son), Dhaartaraa.s.t.raa.h (Dh.rtaa.s.t.ra's sons)
=etc. should be translatable in a better way than *quntI* puqloD.
=Maybe *quntI*Hom? Similar to -son (son of) in germanic languages and
=-ov (genitive form) in slavic languages... The idea -Hom comes from (I hate
=to admit this) my own language, in which most last names, including mine,
=finish with -i'c (that is, -ic with a dash above "c"), which is also
=diminutive suffix. I am fully aware that this is quite idiomatic to Croatian
=(or at least it was - most of the speakers are quite unaware of the connection
=between the surname suffix and diminutives), but it is the only logical thing
=I could think of. Suggestions, anyone?

Diminutives are used in many Greek surnames as well, but I don't think it's
appropriate for Klingon. puqloDpu' should do, or perhaps just nuvpu', with
an explaining note.

=   	5) Also, in the same line of thinking, a word for grandson would be
=useful, and could be something like puqloDnI' (analogy with vavnI'). Yes, I
=know we can't make up our own words until we get canon version. I stuck
=with puqloD puqloD. Qu'vatlh! {{:^(

puqloDnI', at least, has been published in HolQeD, so it has more sanction
than most.

=nochta' = h.r.siike'sa.h

Oh, so these are names! I'd still put them in asterisks; saves us puzzling
over what's going on.

-- 
Nick.

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