tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Jun 18 11:46:55 2014

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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 'arDaq

Robyn Stewart ([email protected]) [KLI Member] [Hol po'wI']

With something like {mIvDaq yIH} sitting on its own, I see it as the beginning of {mIvDaq yIH vIlegh}, which I'm okay as interpreting as me not being in the hat too, thanks to <pa'vo' pagh leghlu'> (the room has no view) from the tapes. I'm happy with a sentence fragment being used as a standalone title. I would reject *{muSuch mIvDaq yIH}. 

Likewise  {telDaq wovmoHwI'mey} could be expanded to {telDaq wovmoHwI'mey lujomlu'} and it seems perfectly reasonable to omit the verb. luch jomlu'bogh bopmo' Doch naQ.

I don't think of a type 5 migrating to the second noun in a noun-noun construction. It's rare that a type 5 is applicable to one noun in such a construction, and not both. An example I can think of would be:

loDnI'lI' betleH DangIp'a'?
ghobe', betleHDaj munoj be'nI'wI''e'. 

That's a workaround for *{ghobe', be'nI'wI''e' betleH vIngIp.}  

I suppose there's also:
betleHvetlh Dunoj'a' be'nI'lI' 'IH?
ghobe', munoj be'nI'wI' moH'e'.

To avoid *{be'nI'wI' moH'e' betleH vIngIp.}
But I'd accept {be'nI'wI' moH'e' betleHDaj'e' vIngIp} or {be'nI'wI' moH'e' betleHDaj vIngIp}. 
(betleH Doj ghajlaw' be'nI'wI' moH).

mubelmoH chutvam, because with longer noun phrases the type fives separate them. It would be hard to write parsable sentences if a noun with type 5 could be in a N-N with the following noun.

Whether it is correct or not, this pattern of having the type 5 come at the end of a phrase definitely influences my comfort with {quS 'arDaq nav vIlannIS}.  If I heard {quSDaq 'ar nav vIlannIS} I would mentally correct it to {quSDaq nav 'ar vIlannIS}.

- Qov

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Boozer [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: June 18, 2014 8:39
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 'arDaq

SuStel:
> There is no such rule that I'm aware of. You can't have a type 5 noun 
> suffix on the first noun of a noun-noun construction, but there's no 
> rule about it migrating.

lojmitti7wi7nuv:
>> This is an odd rule since it's non-trivial trying to come up with an 
>> example where you'd be tempted to put the Type 5 on the first noun.
>> Maybe I've just been following this rule so long that I can't think 
>> of a reason to want to break it...

SuStel:
> Krankor has been known to break this rule with his {mIvDaq yIH} 
> "tribble in a helmet" (i.e., cat in the hat). Okrand also breaks the 
> rule on the Bird of Prey poster, though I can't recall the exact 
> phrases. I've seen lots of people on this list break the rule in the 
> same way, so it's not non-trivial.[]

FYI, examples of {-Daq} in the BOP Poster:
 
  tlhIngan juHqo'Daq tlhIng yoSDaq 'oH toQDuj chenmoHlu'meH Daq wa'DIch'e'
  1st Construction Site: The Kling District, Klingon Home World

  cha' choQmey naQ tu'lu' 'ej tep choQ bIngDaq lo' law' bID choQ tu'lu')
  2 Full Decks and a Half Utility Deck under the Cargo Deck)

  muDDaq 'eDSeHcha lulaQlu'bogh: jav
  Atmospheric Take-Off/Landing Thrusters - 6

  nISwI' talmey: cha' (telDaq lujomlu')
  Disruptor Cannon – 2 (Wing Mounted)

  nISwI': cha' chang'engmey (telDaq lujomlu', nItebHa' lubaHlu')
  Disruptor - 2 Pairs (Wing Mounted, Fire Linked)

  telDaq wovmoHwI'mey
  Wing Lights

It occurs to me that the grammar of brief labels, chapter headings, isolated phrases, etc. may be different than that of full sentences and, especially, connected literary prose.  Perhaps more a difference of style.


--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons



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