tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Mar 02 15:42:40 2012
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLI CanonHom (was: Facebook Translation Project [FTP]: weekdays)
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<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: 10pt;">> To those who want to make lists, I say make them all you want.<br>
><br>
> Send me copies.<br>
><br>
> Just don't be surprised if no one else wants to use it.<br>
<br>
The problem I have with that is that it's not all that helpful when the goal is to communicate clearly with a general public.<br>
<br>
One last argument before I withdraw my suggestion:<br>
<br>
The Facebook weekdays will probably be voted on by about 5-10 people.<br>
The first TEDtalk translated into Klingon contains many neologisms only approved by two people.<br>
The Klingon translation of MineCraft has one active translator, and two-three who contribute from time to time.<br>
Several lists of neologisms exist on the net, but most of them - while good and at times quite useful - are compiled by a single person, or maybe two people.<br>
<br>
People running these projects may reach out to people in various ways for suggestions, but the feedback they receive will only reflect the views of those active in that particular forum at that particular forum.<br>
<br>
What I'd like is a way to avoid that; to try to devise a system that involves as large a portion of the jatlhwI' community as possible, so that the list actually reflects the speaker base.<br>
<br>
<br>
I rather like André's idea; though I'm too lazy to have done any real work on it, I've sometimes imagined having a searchable corpus where you can filter by categories such as "Okrandian canon", "Published KLI work", "Published Star Trek work", "Used on-screen"
and "Used in casual conversation by jatlhwI'".<br>
<br>
I think both models could co-exist, and I think both could have separate uses.<br>
My fear for a wiki/GoogleDoc is that it will become like ghItlh'a', with only a few remotely active users and rather little interaction in-between them (which, in my experience using wikis and Google Docs in the workplace, is a very common problem). If there
were a way to combat that problem (which I'm not ruling out), it may serve the purpose I've imagined for my model.<br>
<br>
[Not saying that my model magically solves this problem; I've had brief visions of a first draft of a suggestion for a memo to guide the process of writing a memo for developing this system, and on the list of "Big problems in need of tackling" there was the
point "The process needs to be dry enough to be taken seriously, yet engaging enough to encourage widespread participation at various levels."<br>
Though I still don't know how to resolve that problem*, I think it'd be easier to get a large number of people involved if the end product had some sort of "semi-official" status; "I went to a workshop during a local qepHom / took part in a forum discussion
/ voted in a poll, and my ideas contributed to an official KLI document."<br>
The details really aren't that important, though (which is part of the reason I've only spoken in fairly broad terms); if another system gets people to take an active role in affecting their language, then I'm all for it.]<br>
<br>
That being said, I've used up all of my arguments, and if the views of those involved in this conversation are even remotely indicative of the jatlhwI' community as a whole, then I freely admit that my model would be impossible to implement (at least at this
point in time), since consensus lies at its very core.<br>
<br>
Sleeping pill really starting to bite in. Good night, 'IHwI'pu' :)<br>
<br>
<br>
*I imagine you'd ground it in an online forum with flashy voting tools, complemented by "in the flesh" workshops at qepmey, the election of a preparatory committee that would present their report (preferably both at a physical meeting and online) for feedback
before online voting (with some sort of minimum number of votes required before it passes.<br>
Not a small bill to fit, I know, which is why I'm curious if anything like this would have enough support to be worth the effort.<br>
<br>
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<div style="direction: ltr;" id="divRpF575016"><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> André Müller [[email protected]]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 02, 2012 23:08<br>
<b>To:</b> [email protected]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLI CanonHom (was: Facebook Translation Project [FTP]: weekdays)<br>
</font><br>
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<div dir="ltr">I believe the the 21st century computer term list that 'anan naHQun mentioned might refer to the humble (and outdated) list in my private Wikipedia user space:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:N-true/List_of_Klingon_computer_terms"; target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:N-true/List_of_Klingon_computer_terms</a><br>
<br>
I compiled this little list when I was attempting to translate Skype (or some other program) and Wikia (back then still on Wikipedia) into Klingon and also when I began trying to translate Facebook, I believe. At least, back than (must've been 3 years ago,
by now!) I at least referred to this list ever so often. Seems I have compiled the list in 2007.<br>
<br>
My personal opinion is indeed that we should not vote on newly coined words, but that it could – and I'm repeating myself and others here – be helpful to at least compile a few list (or one single list) with words that some proficient speakers or writers coined,
including words from works such as Hamlet, ghIlghameS, the Daodejing and such.<br>
These lists should have a big disclaimer, a kind of warning that these terms are mere suggestions, or not even that... just, that they're a compilation to show who has used what expression for which non-Klingon term where. Such a list could and should have
annotations which might contain warnings why a word might not be fitting. I always used "Hogh jaj wa'" for Monday, but a list would have many other proposals for this, each with a note or linked explanation, noting that not the whole world starts counting
the week on Monday, or simple something like "could be mistaken as 1st [of March]" for instance... other proposals would then be "jaj wa'", "jaj cha'", "jaj wa'DIch", maybe even something like "monDay" or "manDey" but maybe not simple "Monday" (or Montag,
lundi etc.).<br>
Steven sometimes includes information like this, mentioning that people on the list used this-and-that word before for referring to, say, "computer virus" or something like that.
<br>
<br>
This could be a Wiki open (or GoogleDoc? I'm not too familiar with that) to everyone, not only members on the list. People who dislike these things could ignore them and use their own standards. Because of the disclaimer and the various possible translation
given, no one actually has the right to say "But we agreed that Monday is jaj wa'!"<br>
<br>
I'd see such a list as a mere help for those of us who translate or compose texts in Klingon and sometimes struggle for words and concepts. And if I had a list with a note like "used in 'Hamlet'" or "suggested by De'vID jonpIn" I'd rather pick one of those,
if I agree with its logic, than making up my own words. I might have had a completely different idea but then concluded that someone had choosen a much better wording before. Also, if I disagree with someone's suggestion, I could add a little note to the entry
in the Wiki, saying that the word is ambiguous, too vague or I simply add my own term, adding "coined by André" (or maybe "used by André") and others then might do the same... agree, that my idea is better or write a comment there or on the discussion page
that my suggestions is totally off, or do nothing but decide for an alternative.<br>
<br>
These things are all discussable and wouldn't seem like elitism or per se. I see the danger that such a list might become a "This is how you say it." list, but not necessarily so. That list would have not one single, but several possible translations for the
English lemmata, annotations that lets the reader see the "dangers" and the disclaimer could be formulated wisely.<br>
I'm sure someone has suggested these things before, but I think the usefulness would outweigh the dangers and "elitism" by far, because it would be obvious to every reader that these are mere suggestions which you are free to follow, ignore, annotate or enlarge.<br>
<br>
Greetings,<br>
- André<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2012/3/2 David Trimboli <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class="im">On 3/2/2012 4:13 PM, Michael Roney, Jr. PKT wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
But if I were to suggest writing these words down on a list, we'd<br>
have the same argument that's going on now.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
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Right. It's the difference between "Aha, I see what you did there!" and "This is how you say it." And no matter how unofficial you claim a list is, if it's endorsed by the list or by the KLI, it WILL become "This is how you say it."<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
SuStel<br>
<a href="http://www.trimboli.name/"; target="_blank">http://www.trimboli.name/</a></font></span>
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