tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Jan 01 12:43:09 2012
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[Tlhingan-hol] {X net Y} vs. {X 'e' Y-lu'}
- From: "De'vID jonpIn" <[email protected]>
- Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] {X net Y} vs. {X 'e' Y-lu'}
- Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 21:42:59 +0100
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<p>WARNING: Speculation about grammar. Avoid if that's not your {Dargh HIvje'}.</p>
<p>Because MO uses both {X net Y} and {X 'e' Y-lu'} in Klingon Monopoly, and there aren't that many sentences, I'm not convinced that the use of {X 'e' Y-lu'} is an error.</p>
<p>Here are the sentences from Klingon Monopoly of the form {X 'e' Y-lu'}:</p>
<p>{Qang QanmeH yan 'ISletlh Damuv 'e' wIvlu'.}<br>
"You are chosen to serve on the Yan-Isleth and protect the Chancellor."</p>
<p>{DIvI' rojmab qep ghanglu' 'e' nIDlu', 'ach taH qep.}<br>
"Despite efforts to halt them, peace talks with Federation continue."</p>
<p>Here are the sentences from Klingon Monopoly of the form {X net Y}:</p>
<p>{Duj ghajchugh pagh, beylI'vo' 'oH Daje' net chaw'.}<br>
{HoSHal ghajchugh pagh, beylI'vo' 'oH Daje' net chaw'.}<br>
Both of these are translated as "If unowned, you may buy it from the Bank."</p>
<p>In an earlier thread ("Klingon Monopoly: another card"), I speculated that {X net Y} and {X 'e' Y-lu'} have slightly different meanings. Namely, {X net Y} implies no relationship between the indefinite subjects of the verbs {X} and {Y}, whereas {X 'e' Y-lu'} implies that the subject of {X} is the subject of {Y} (the object of {Y-lu'}). And in particular, {W-lu' 'e' Y-lu'} implies that {W-lu'} and {Y-lu'} share the same indefinite subject.</p>
<p>That is, I think {Damuv 'e' wIvlu'} means "you are chosen to join" (similar to {Damuv; SoH DawIvlu'}, whereas {Damuv net wIv} means "it is chosen, you join" (similar to {Damuv; 'oH wIvlu'}).</p>
<p>By the same reasoning, I also think that {ghanglu' 'e' nIDlu'} implies that the indefinite subject of both verbs are the same (i.e,. "someone tried to end it prematurely, someone tried that someone -- the same person -- end it prematurely"), whereas {ghanglu' net nID} means "it is tried that someone end it prematurely, someone tried that someone (possibly someone else) end it prematurely". I think this is more clear in the two sentences from TKW p.125.</p>
<p>As for {Daje' net chaw'}, it needs to be {net} because the object of {chaw'} is the action being permitted. *{Daje' 'e' chaw'lu'} is like *{Daje'; SoH chaw'lu'}, but this isn't how {chaw'} works.</p>
<p>Does anyone else see this difference between the {X net Y} and {X 'e' Y-lu'} sentences, or am I imagining things? Is my speculation contradicted by any canon?</p>
<p>--<br>
De'vID</p>
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