At 10:53 28/10/2011, David Trimboli wrote:
On 10/28/2011 1:19 PM, Qov wrote:
2. ghunchu'wI' started discussion on the thing that I found.
On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Qov <[email protected]> wrote:
> jatlh "qavoqbe' bIjatlh."[38]
> ...
> [38] Ok this is a way more interesting question than the one about
whether I
> should use the word jatlh or ja' every time I use quotation marks. I
want to
> see how you react to this, then I will tell you what I am thinking
about it.
Hey, that's neat. I didn't think anything of it when I read it,
besides quietly noting that it was properly formed as reported speech
according to TKD. Now that you point it out as something worth
focusing on, I realize that what she actually had said was {vIvoqbe'}.
It works. I'm willing to consider it the moral equivalent of
tense-mangling in English reported speech: "You said you were bringing
donuts next week." If you think too hard, it seems broken, but it's
the right way to do it.
As ghunchu'wI' pointed out, what 'eSSIm said was vIvoqbe' - I don't
trust him . What Mahoun would say in English would be "You said you
don't trust me." Outside the context of this story, if I asked you how
to say "You said you trust me," in Klingon, everyone would say <bIjatlh
qavoq> (or <qavoq bIjatlh>). So does the fact that the context made her
actual word be vIvoq mean that bIjatlh qavoq is not correct here? I
think bIjatlh qavoq means "you said you trust me" regardless of whether
the actual words spoken were, "QIpbogh novvetlh SuD vIvoq," "DaHjaj
qavoqchoH," "I trust you" or even "Hovmey Davan." For example in an
earlier draft the next line was "SaH Duj bIjatlhDI'." I don't think
Mahoun ever said the wards "SaH Duj" but he said other words that avered
the existence of a ship, and no one would protest that <SaH Duj
bIjatlhDI'> is not the way to say when you said there was a ship would
they? I think a Klingon can say "You said there was a ship," without
saying <bIjatlh INSERT_EXACT_QUOTATION_HERE.>
This is the difference between quoted speech and reported speech that I
was getting at in the earlier discussion about whether my use of
quotation marks instead of attributed speech tags was acceptable. (For
the record, and I'm sure the proponents of always using them have
noticed, I've started using them almost always. I still feel that
there's a difference when a character is saying "Person X said this" as
opposed to when *I* am saying it. But the more I thought about it the
more I wanted to use ja' and jatlh each time.)
At the beginning of Power Klingon, we have:
tlhIngan: nuqneH?
Human: 'IH jaj, qar'a'?
tlhIngan: jISaHbe'.
Human: bISaHbe' qatlh bIjatlh?
So your position may be supported. As far as we know, the Human is
speaking grammatical Klingon, albeit inappropriately.
What the Human said doesn't support my position. I think the human
should have said, "jISaHbe' qatlh bIjatlh." The position I have taken is
that to report what someone said, it is acceptable to paraphrase what
they said, if necessary changing the addressee for clarity, but
retaining the words as ones that the person being reported could have
said in the situation being reported on, i.e. with the correct prefix
direction for them.
To me, "bISaHbe' qatlh bIjatlh" means "Why did you say I don't care?"
This example seems to contradict my understanding that you should not
reverse the direction of the prefixes in reported speech.
Is p.67 of TKD, the exchange in PK and that newsgroup example the sum
total of our knowledge of reported speech and quotations? Both the
latter instances are reporting a first person singular no object speech
act. They seem to directly contradict one another.
tlhIngan jIH bIjatlh - speech reported exactly as the person said it
bISaHbe' bIjatlh - prefix changed to match the observer's perspective.
I would prefer to resolve the contradiction by assuming the Human made
an error by formulating the reported speech in the manner of Federation
Standard and not in the Klingon way.
But Okrand also gave a counter-example in the old MSN newsgroup, which
he describes as "giving a direct quotation":
tlhIngan jIH bIjatlh "you say, 'I am a Klingon'"
Nowhere has Okrand ever explained that Klingons use reported speech
instead of direct quotations.
When he translates HIqaghQo' qaja'pu' as "I told you not to interrupt
me" he is demonstrating reported speech. If he weren't, the translation
would have been the literal meaning he gives below. In other words
Okrand hasn't explained that Klingons use reported speech instead of
direct quotations, but he has demonstrated that they use what look like
direct quotations in reported speech.
How do you think Mahoun should say, "You said you don't trust me," in
this context? <vIvoqbe' bIjatlh>? How should he said it if her exact
words were. "luvoq latlhpu' 'a jIQoch" or "Davoqbe'nIS 'e' chupmo'
jupwI' vuDDaj vIlajta'."?