tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Apr 23 09:30:36 2008
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Re: cha' Hol ngeb mu'ghommey Daj vItu'pu'!
[email protected] wrote:
> Using English as an example is fine, as long as it's noted as such.
> I didn't see any such indication in the original post.
I thought I specifically called it an "example".
Doq wrote:
> The only point I'd make about the possibility of your argument being
> irrelevant is that you assume that because "blackbird" is, in your
> opinion, always pronounced differently by a native English speaker
> than "black bird", that {paqpo'} would always be pronounced
> differently than {paq po'} for a Klingon. That is the assumption you
> make with no evidence to back it up.
I don't recall saying "always". I was speaking generally. Of course,
there are times (hurried speech, for example) when speakers don't
distinguish. But generally, even in casual speech, native speakers do
make the distinction in their own speech and are aware of the
distinction in the speech of others.
(And by the way, it's not just my opinion - this is a well-documented
phenomenon, backed up by sonographic analysis. You can actually see the
difference in pronunciation on a spectrogram.)
As I look back on my post, I see that it is possible to interpret it the
way you did. However, I was using English only as an example of a
general linguistic principle. I suppose I could have used Finnish, or
French, or Portuguese, but I thought more people on this list could
relate to an English example. (And of course, it was easier to think of
one in English since it's my native language.)
Now, to forestall the argument (or at least get a head start on it), let
me point out the reasons why I think general linguistic principles
derived from human languages are applicable to Klingon.
Outside the fiction, the language was created by a human to be spoken by
human actors. As much as Okrand may have tried to select the features
rarest in human languages (such as OVS word order), he was still
selecting features that exist in human languages.
Inside the fiction, Klingons are genetically similar to humans. They can
interbreed, and the reason for this is that their DNA was engineered
this way by an ancient species (as it was the DNA of most if not all
humanoid species). In fact, Klingons seem to be closer to humans than
Vulcans are, since Vulcan-human hybrids can only be created with medical
intervention, while (if I recall correctly) Klingon-human hybrids need
no such aid. This would indicate that their phonological apparatus (that
is, the organs they use to produce sound) is pretty similar, and the
fact that they can speak each others' languages seems to confirm that.
References:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Ancient_humanoid
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Hybrid
Furthermore, when I say they can speak each others' languages, I don't
mean that they simply can produce the sounds, but they can actually
learn to understand native speakers of the other language and make
themselves understood to them. So the linguistic apparatus in their
minds is likely similar as well. The fact that the universal translator
has a much easier time translating humanoid languages than non-humanoid
languages also supports the idea that similar linguistic principles
govern humanoid languages.
Reference:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Universal_translator
Thus, since the physical and mental processes used to produce language
in both species are likely very similar, it is reasonable to assume that
general linguistic principles apply. (But not, of course, that the rules
of any one specific language apply.)
Yes, in the end it is still just an assumption, but it is one that has
specific evidence from the canon of the various series to back it up.
> You may be right. You may be wrong. We can't know
Good point; I made same one regarding the {pIqaD} aspect of compound
nouns (as opposed to the pronunciation aspect) in the final paragraph of
my original post on this topic. We know very little about most topics
relating to {tlhIngan Hol}.