tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Jul 30 15:43:45 2004

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Re: mu' lo' QaQ 'oSbogh mu'tlheghmey

Alan Anderson ([email protected]) [KLI Member] [Hol po'wI']

[I know my response is nearly two months late.  I changed ISPs and email
addresses right around when this exchange took place, and I seem to have
missed seeing it at the time.]

ja'pu' SuStel:
>No one is going to learn
>to speak the language if he is given phrases from experts.

ja' lay'tel SIvten:
>This is precisely how everyone learns his native language (considering any
>native speaker to be an expert).  This is how many, perhaps most, people
>learn a
>second language.  Klingon should be no different.

In *my* world, that's not the way people learn a native language at all.
An infant doesn't receive a babythink-to-English phrasebook.  Nobody gives
a toddler a list of phrases to be used to express specific ideas -- some
people might try, but language acquisition at that age doesn't work that
way.  Young children just don't have the mental gears engaged to be able to
make use of such a list, even if they remembered it.  Native languages are
acquired through immersion, not formal instruction.

Second languages are qualitatively different, as the apparently hardwared
language-learning part of the brain switches off.  They *can* be acquired
analytically, once the student is mentally mature enough to apply the
appropriate effort, and indeed such effort is usually necessary in order to
overcome the loss of the "automatic" language acquisition ability of a very
young mind.  However, practical exercises are *always* necessary in order
to actually learn a language (as opposed to learning *about* a language).
Immersion works very well as a method of reinforcing the study.  I'm
convinced it's the *only* way to break through the barrier of constantly
having to think in one's native language and translate.  (Perhaps it could
be sufficient to read enough material written in the other language -- but
emphatically *not* with associated conveniently pre-packaged translations.
That only exercises one half of the process, though.)

It is very likely true that "many, perhaps most, people" do study a second
language by receiving explicit instruction from experts, and those who work
at it can learn it well enough to translate pretty much anything they might
need to.  But there is a real difference between a) being able to translate
to and from a language, and b) speaking a language.  Among the people I
have asked, the ones who actually have internalized the a second language
to the point where they can speak it as easily as a native language
*invariably* tell me they didn't get to that point without real practice
actually speaking it with others.  The equivalent of a tourist's guidebook
(=BFD=F3nde est=E1 la estaci=F3n de autob=FAses?) is not helpful outside the=
 limited
context for which it is written.

In short, I believe SuStel had it exactly right:  no one is going to learn
to speak the language if he is given phrases from experts.

* * *

Of course, the entire topic presupposes that anyone here can be counted as
an "expert" in the field of creating examples of proper Klingon uage.  I'm
afraid I don't subscribe to that view.  Some of us are very familiar with
the language, but we're not qualified to invent examples showing how
Klingon words are to be used.  I believe the best we can do is list how
Klingon words *have* been used.

-- ghunchu'wI'

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