tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Jul 14 13:32:54 2003

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Flawed comparison (was Re: My 2¢ etc.)

You folks are really pushing all my buttons today. :)  Okay, 
let's dive in.

> The differences in the two here are *very* important to my 
>standpoint. Quenya and Sindarin, both used in the Lord of the 
>Rings trilogy, have evolved. They've moved beyond what they were 
(to an extent), and become what Tolkien envisioned.

First, let it be known that one of the main reasons that I 
started the KLI in the early 90's was because of my experiences 
as a teenager hanging out with a group known as the Mythopoeic 
Linguistic Fellowship (later renamed Elvish Linguistic 
Fellowship, or ELF) which at the time was the main (if not only) 
organization studying Tolkien's languages in the USA. That was 
back in the days of people like Bill Weldeon and Paula Marmor, 
Jim Allan and Chris Gilson; names which will mean something to 
anyone studying the Eldarin tongues today. Those experiences 
guided me in the formation of the KLI. Convinced me that you 
*could* study a language from fiction.

Second, keep in mind that in those halcyon days, Tolkien was 
still alive, and THE SILMARILLION not yet published. The lexicon 
of Elvish (and I mean ALL forms, Quenya, Sindarin, Proto-Eldarin) 
was a tiny tiny document. This lexicon expanded greatly when the 
SILMARILLION was published, but it was still tiny (as opposed to 
tiny tiny). 

The vast flood of materials from Tolkien's hand came to the ELF 
years after Tolkien's death, in the form of volume after volume of notes and tales published by his son, Christopher. 

Third, I don't think you can speak of what "Tokien envisioned." I  
unfamiliar with any statements from him on the topic of where he 
wanted his languages to go. I'm aware that he created them for 
his own delight, and was pleased to respond to intelligent 
queries made by members of the MLF before his death. I know he 
had a quirky sense of humor, and inserted Florence Nightengale 
and other puns into his languages, but that's the kind of thing 
we expect from invented languages. Other intent or visions? Don't 
know of them, and won't presume to guess.


>Tokien actually created a past for his languages, going so far 
>as to outline three different alphabets that were used 
>"throughout the ages, in succession" as one linguist put it. He
>started the evolution of the Elven tongues, so speakers of 
>Sindarin today can actually go back and create new words as a 
>concensus sees fit, by the etymology of the words themselves.

One of the reasons that Tolkien's languages lend themselves to 
this sort of process is revealed by realizing that Tolkien was 
NOT a linguist, but rather a philologist. The patterns of other 
languages, both existing and dead, run throughout the Eldarin 
tongues. That makes the process of generating new words 
considerably easier in theory, though it requires tremenodous 
scholarship, and it is very easy to document that the level of 
scholarship performed by organizations like the latest 
incarnation of ELF exceeds that of the KLI. But that's part of 
the nature of what they have to work with versus what we have to 
work with. 
And yet, despite these alleged advantages that you point to, 
beyond some poems and songs (some of which I admit are very 
lovely) I know of nothing significant either translated from 
another language into Sindarin, nor much in the way of new work 
crafted in any of the Eldarin tongues. 

It's not my goal to turn the world of constructed languages into 
a pissing contest, but rather to point out that the comparisons 
being posted are woefully incomplete and flawed. 

Nor is this a zero-sum game. When I created HolQeD for the KLI, I 
first contacted the head of the ELF and consulted with him. Our 
original layout greatly resembled their own publication, Vinyar 
Tengwar. Similarly, I'm told that other constructed language 
organizations (e.g., the Lojban speakers) often look at the 
activities of the KLI for ideas of what they might be doing. And 
both of these are fine. 

Klingon is what it is. Sindarin is what it is. There are 
similarities in their origins, but it all breaks down soon after. 
I don't find comparisons terribly useful, even when they're 
accurate.

Lawrence

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