tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Jul 14 13:07:09 2003

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Re: My 2^â (was Re: Is the language too bound for its own good? (was Re: Klingon - Terminology Databases (IMHO)))

It is certainly true that Okrand's Klingon was never developed to the scale
that Tolkien's languages have been.  It isn't really fair to compare
them.  Tolkien's work would have to be dumbed-down tremendously in order
to bring it down to the level of merely "genius".  Tolkien invented many
languages, gave each a history and development and an impact on the
others, and they grew up as interrelated masterworks.  Tolkien also left
behind massive quantities of notes and writings on the subject, much of
which is still unpublished (and thus the subject of much rancor among
would-be students of Elvish).

Okrand, of course, had no idea his little toy language was ever going to
be read by anyone when he invented it, and even if he had, it's a rare
(or unique) person who can devote the kind of effort to a (set of)
constructed languages that Tolkien did.

Enough apologia, so what about this "expansion" business?  Well, you can
talk all you want about Sindarin being used and translated into every
day (and it's true, and so is Klingon).  But I *really* doubt there's
ever been a *brand new* Sindarin root invented by any Tolkienist which
was broadly accepted by the Elvish-speaking community.  Yes, we know
more about how Sindarin developed, and we have "asterisk-words" of
Proto-Elvish and some idea of how they transformed on the way into later
Sindarin, Telerin, etc.  And yes, people will sometimes invent words by
running these primordial roots through the presumed transformations, but
even then, the results are marked with asterisks, as hypothetical
inventions, and certainly are not accepted by all (especially not the
more conservative Elflinguists).  And after all, maybe tomorrow someone
will publish another page of Tolkien's notebook which invalidates that
word.  Not every word, after all, follows the same course as languages
evolve.  And indeed, the reason Quenya has not seen the same kind of
expansion is not because it's a "dead language" in Tolkien's secondary
world, but because we just plain know too little about it.  The same can
be said for Khuzdul, Black Speech, Westron, and pretty much all the
Tolkien languages except maybe Sindarin and a few closely related
languages (Me, I'd love to know more about Westron: it was the common
language that was so well-known throughout Middle-Earth!  And it's the
language from which Tolkien "translated" many of the names in the
books).  

Tolkien did *not* write histories for his languages so that his later
disciples could carry on using them after he was gone.  He never
expected anyone else to care about the languages.  He didn't even want
to write/publish some of the books of Middle-Earth history, since to him
they were mostly "linguistic background" for the languages, and why
should anyone else care?  Indeed, he referred to language-creation as
"The Secret Vice" (ref his essay of that name).  He made the languages
complete because *he* wanted them to be, and *he* needed it.  Not
because we did.  Okrand, yibadel l'chayim (he should be distinguished for
life, i.e. as opposed to Tolkien, who is dead, we would not want to lump
them together)--and that's the point: he is among us, and does what he
does because *we* want it, not because he does.  If he gave up that
authority, or more accurately if we stopped ascribing it to him, we run
the risk of splintering the language, as each person or group adds words
as they see fit, duplicating each other's efforts and contradicting each
other.  And also of lessening the language.  Okrand takes pains to make
the language different, unlike many other extant languages.  It's far
too easy for us to start adding in "obvious" tweaks--obvious because
they mirror English (or whatever our native language is).  I wouldn't
want that, any more than I'd want it in Sindarin.

Okrand won't be there forever?  Even then, there should still be some
single central authority, until the speaking community is big enough and
more importantly, ubiquitous enough to survive "natural" evolution
(that's how normal languages manage to develop without splintering: if
the community is large enough and well-connected enough that just about
every portion of it is regularly exposed to all the other portions, they
can move in lock-step, or at least understand one another's changes as
mere regionalisms.  And when that doesn't happen, well, the languages DO
splinter, as we see in the multitude of languages we have today).

~mark

 
> I have a personal opinion on this subject that is probably vastly
> different than the majority, however, in true klingon fashion, I'm going
> to speak it and everyone can get over it later =)
> 
>   There are many "artificial" languages, but only a handful that have
> actually sprung from fiction in any way that is usable for conversation.
> Fremen (from Frank Herbert's sci-fi masterpiece Dune) is limited to it's
> almost-arabic vocabulary and proverbial constructs. But, the two language
> groups that have fared the best in the eyes of the people are the Elven
> languages Tolkien devised, and tlhIngan Hol, by Okrand. 
>   The differences in the two here are *very* important to my standpoint.
> Quenya and Sindarin, both used in the Lord of the Rings trilogy, have
> evolved. They've moved beyond what they were (to an extent), and become
> what Tolkien envisioned. In fact, in some cases, they're as useful, if
> not moreso than Klingon, and they're not even "complete languages".
> Quenya has changed very little, being a dead language akin to Latin, but
> Sindarin is actively translated every day in message boards and email
> listings like this one. Why? Because Tolkien's approach to language is
> vastly different than Okrand's. Tokien actually created a past for his
> languages, going so far as to outline three different alphabets that were
> used "throughout the ages, in succession" as one linguist put it. He
> started the evolution of the Elven tongues, so speakers of Sindarin today
> can actually go back and create new words as a concensus sees fit, by the
> etymology of the words themselves. They have a past, they can dictate the
> "evolution" of a term. There are few things they cannot translate.
>   Okrand didn't do this, so we rely on him for words. (An image is
> conjured up of thousands of Klingons staring at Boreth, waiting for a
> message from Kahless himself, only to be left wondering if he'll speak
> today) Okrand makes up words as he sees fit, and while this is a good
> system, and has been working for roughly 20 years, it will /only/ work
> while Okrand lives. When he goes to fight in the Black Fleet, we're
> screwed for vocab. lol  Maltz isn't a grand help, either, for he only
> serves IC purposes that continue to evade me (most of us consider
> ourselves Klingon IC, not tera'ngan, so Maltz really does a
> whole-lotta-nothing for those of us who are supposed to be native
> speakers within the fiction.) Holding contests to beg Matlz for new vocab
> once again conjures that Klingons-staring-at-Boreth image, with the
> addition of perhaps a romuluSngan or tribble sacrifice. lol
>   Okrand's system, the way it is, works fine as long as he lives. But,
> Tolkien is gone, and his language lives on, with new vocabulary added
> regularly to his constructed languages. Why? Two reasons. First, he
> understood that when he passed, his "children" (he always liked the elves
> best) would yearn for the realism of his works, so a semi-complete and
> totally workable/speakable language was a must in order to provide that
> (after all, he was a linguist himself). Secondly, he gave us something to
> base future vocabulary and grammar on, etymology.
>   Okrand has given us a similar gift in the second; while we know nothing
> of primitive Klingon, we do know about the speakers, and their attitudes,
> which would assist "us" in creating vocabulary when our children's
> children's decendants speak the warrior tongue, and Maltz has long since
> given up his tongue. Klingons don't say "hello." they say "what do you
> want?" or immediately state their business. They don't assume you like
> something by default (parHa'), they assume you don't (par). Klingons are
> rough, crude, yet artistic and intelligent. In the future, that's what
> will shape the language, unless Paramount decides to let it die through
> selfishness and greed.
> 
> My 2¢,
> Kash
> 
> On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 09:50:50 -0600 "d'Armond Speers" <[email protected]>
> writes:
> > There are a couple of different ways of looking at this issue, from 
> > within 
> > the fiction and outside the fiction.
> > 
> > Within the fiction, we are learning to speak the language of 
> > Klingons.  They 
> > exist on another planet far away.  We can't go there and learn it; 
> > all we 
> > can do is learn with what we have, and get occasional information 
> > from Maltz 
> > (though his Federation interrogator).  Our goal is to speak the 
> > language 
> > accurately, so that if we do meet a Klingon he can understand us.  
> > In this 
> > context, we can't change the language to suit our needs.  We don't 
> > want to 
> > speak "Terran-Klingon."  If we start adding words, we're not 
> > speaking 
> > Klingon any more.  (As for a lack of vocabulary, there's no reason 
> > that 
> > Klingon should have words for Terran concepts such as "dog" or 
> > "truffle" 
> > since they don't exist, we assume, on Kronos.)
> > 
> > Outside the fiction, this is a language created for a TV show.  Its 
> > legal 
> > status is unclear, and though we believe Paramount would not win a 
> > legal 
> > contest, practically speaking noone has the resources to challenge 
> > them. 
> > Regarding Okrand, he is still an active and willing participant with 
> > the 
> > community.  If he were ignoring us or didn't care about Klingon then 
> > I'd be 
> > more interested in figuring out how the KLI can continue to develop 
> > the 
> > language, but this isn't the case.
> > 
> > Whichever perspective you prefer, I disagree with the statement "You 
> > can't 
> > use it in daily life, especially with having little to no words 
> > about daily 
> > items and too much confusion about pronunciation and grammar.  We 
> > don't 
> > learn it because it's not allowed to be anything more than a fake 
> > language."
> > 
> > First, there is no confusion about pronunciation.  For most 
> > practical 
> > purposes, there is no confusion about the grammar.  And even the 
> > vocabulary 
> > is sufficiently rich to handle most anything you want to say, as 
> > long as you 
> > don't expect Klingon to have a word things like "taco."  There's 
> > nothing 
> > wrong with Klingon lacking these words.  What's the English word for 
> > "taco"? 
> > We don't have one, so we just say "taco."  You don't need a Klingon 
> > word for 
> > it.
> > 
> > Every day, the speakers on this list prove that you can use this 
> > language. 
> > Just come to a qep'a', and see how people who have put in the effort 
> > to 
> > learn the language can speak it.  The problem here is your friend's 
> > perception, not any shortcoming of the language itself.  Adding 
> > grammar and 
> > vocabulary that make it easier for an English speaker to learn to 
> > speak 
> > Klingon will not do anything to improve or advance the Klingon 
> > language 
> > itself.
> > 
> > If you need to say "coffee-girl," what's wrong with saying 
> > {qa'vIn-be'}?  Of 
> > course you can say this.  I may not understand what you mean, but 
> > I'm not 
> > sure what "coffee-girl" means in the first place.  Will you find it 
> > in TKD? 
> > Nope, but that doesn't mean we need to suddenly complain that 
> > Klingon is a 
> > "fake" language and try to change the grammar/vocab.  We play games 
> > like 
> > this with the language all the time, and we understand each other 
> > just fine. 
> > It's usually people who don't know how to use the tools of the 
> > language who 
> > complain that it doesn't have the right tools, because they don't 
> > match the 
> > tools they're used to using for English.  Learning Klingon is about 
> > learning 
> > to use new tools (grammar/vocab), and it's not easy.  I would have 
> > more 
> > respect for the opinion of your friend who complained about 
> > Klingon's lack 
> > of expressiveness if he could already use Klingon well enough to 
> > participate 
> > in a simple conversation (or pass the Intermediate/Advanced KLCP 
> > exams). 
> > Until he can do that, he hasn't earned the right to complain about 
> > what 
> > Klingon lacks.
> > 
> > --
> > d'Armond Speers, Ph.D.
> > [email protected]
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Klingon Warrior" <[email protected]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 5:44 PM
> > Subject: Is the language too bound for its own good? (was Re: 
> > Klingon - 
> > Terminology Databases (IMHO))
> > 
> > 
> > > I 100% agree about making Klingon more "open."  It does feel like 
> > our 
> > > hands are tied behind our back and that we have no control over 
> > the 
> > > language.  To me, this is ridiculous.  We speak and write and 
> > dedicate so 
> > > much of our lives to this artificial language...why do we have no 
> > > authority?  Okrand, to me, is a blessing!  He really is...I think 
> > he is 
> > > not only a genius (especially with making all the little 
> > intricacies of 
> > > tlhIngan Hol) but a wonderful human being as well.  The thing is, 
> > having 
> > > our knowledge only come from "Maltz," who readily speaks and gives 
> > us 
> > > information, is Hogwash!  We have far too many words that are not 
> > present 
> > > in Klingon...words that we sometimes desperately need...and too 
> > much 
> > > guessing involved.  In my humble opinion, the language cannot 
> > expand and 
> > > grow and prosper and exist in its fullest potential if it is not 
> > allowed 
> > > to.  One time I was sitting down with my Klingon House in our 
> > monthly 
> > > meeting and I had brought up tlhIngan Hol...I was disgusted that !
> > >  no one
> > >  knew anything about the language.  "How can a Klingon House no 
> > nothing 
> > > about tlhIngan Hol?" I asked them...and one of the members said to 
> > me, 
> > > "Because the language is too impractical.  You can't use it in 
> > daily life, 
> > > especially with having little to no words about daily items and 
> > too much 
> > > confusion about pronunciation and grammar.  We don't learn it 
> > because it's 
> > > not allowed to be anything more than a fake language."  That has 
> > stuck 
> > > with me for a very long time, and I have set out to prove them 
> > wrong!  One 
> > > day, I want my children understanding and speaking Klingon as 
> > though it 
> > > were Hebrew in a Jewish family.  One day, I want to have all the 
> > > vocabulary and grammar rules down so cold that I can speak with 
> > ease. 
> > > This can't happen when it seems that the most common of sentences 
> > have to 
> > > be avoided or assumed because we don't have enough information 
> > about it. 
> > > The idea about us "humans" just not knowing enough about Klingon 
> > culture 
> > > and whatever else is getting quite old.  I regar!
> > >  d myself
> > >  as a Klingon anyway!  So why is it that us "Klingon's" still 
> > don't know 
> > > enough about the language.  If nothing else, the Federation and 
> > the Empire 
> > > have been allies for some time now...we should be unbound and 
> > allowed to 
> > > make this language as big as I know it can be.  This language, if 
> > everyone 
> > > knew how worth-wild and practical it really is, can be spoken 
> > around the 
> > > world with greater numbers than what it is now.  And of course, 
> > the 
> > > question now is...if Okrand isn't the only ruling body who makes 
> > things 
> > > "cannon" (though I think that has to stop also...this idea about 
> > things 
> > > being cannon or not is old, too.  If I were to call someone a 
> > > "coffee-girl," I hate the fact that someone would say, "You can't 
> > say 
> > > qa'vInbe' because it's not in TKD."), then who is to say that 
> > things are 
> > > cannon?  A group?  An organization?  A vote?  From who?  Contest 
> > winners? 
> > > Dedicated enthusiasts?  People with a greater knowledge and 
> > greater time 
> > > spent on the language?  Whatever it is, I think somethi!
> > >  ng has to
> > >  happen soon...before we're all left without a prayer of expanding 
> > the 
> > > Honorable Language.
> > >
> > > [email protected] wrote:
> > > >Does anyone else out there feel that Klingon should be made "Open 
> > Source"
> > > and >open
> > > >to a regulatory body such as the KLI to develop further, or do 
> > you all 
> > > >think
> > > that any
> > > >developments should only come from Mark Okrand?
> > >
> > > I agree that tlhIngan Hol should be a growing language and at 
> > times, the
> > > language should change to monitor the changing of times. In any 
> > language, 
> > > the
> > > vocabulary, meanings and even syntax changes with each new 
> > generation. Why
> > > should tlhIngan Hol be any different? Further, we should begin at 
> > some 
> > > point to
> > > move away from Mark Okrand being the supreme authority on 
> > everything 
> > > tlhIngan
> > > Hol. After all, there will be a day when Okrand go on to fight 
> > battles 
> > > along
> > > side his honored ancestors. Where will we be then? As a child is 
> > weaned 
> > > off of
> > > mothers' milk, so we should be weaned off of Okrand. The community 
> > should
> > > become the authority on the changes made to the language on 
> > consensus; to
> > > include new vocabulary, and even the syntax used when constructing 
> > 
> > > sentences and
> > > words with prefixes and suffixes. That is the only way the 
> > language will 
> > > ever
> > > survive. IMHO, like he said.
> > > -veS joH
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Klingon Warrior
> > > taHjaj wo'!
> > > Darren M. Slade
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
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> > > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! 
> > 
> 
> 
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