tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sat Jan 31 17:37:04 1998
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Re: Quality and Aspect Was: Re: KLBC Poetry
- From: Qov <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: Quality and Aspect Was: Re: KLBC Poetry
- Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 17:36:03 -0800
At 19:34 98-01-29 -0800, Qermaq wrote:
}ghItlh SuStel ghunchu'wI' je:
}
}>>...Indeed, while {tuj} is a verb of quality, {tujchoH} describes an
}>>action. Perhaps one is not allowed to place a perfective suffix on any
}>>construction which does not describe an action. (This is just
}speculation.)
}>
}>Ooh, good observation. I now see exactly why we disagree on this. Yes,
}>an aspect suffix on a verb that's not describing an action is a bit odd.
}>I doubt that it's forbidden, but it would seem that interpreting what it
}>means is a topic of debate. :-) I agree that using {-choH} makes sense
}>on my {nen} and {DeH} examples, and based on how I came up with them
}>it
}>would likely fit well on any similar examples I wanted to give. But I'm
}>still not "feeling" that {tujpu'} implies that the being hot has stopped.
I don't think it's odd or forbidden.
tuj - It is hot/it was hot/it will be hot
tujpu' - it had been hot/it has been hot/it will have been hot
(doesn't say whether or not the hotness continues past the point under
consideration)
tujchoH - It was getting hot/It is getting hot/it will be getting hot
tujchoHpu' - It got hot/It's hot now/it will get hot
(We don't say "it's got hot" but "It's hot now" implies the same thing as
{tujchoHpu'}: it has presently completed the process of changing to being hot.
ghorgh tujchoHpu' bIQ? - When will the water be hot? (TKD appendix)
}<-pu'> is simply explained as indicating "an action is completed". There are
}two interpretations. One, only action verbs have meaning when <-pu'> is
}affixed; two, other verbs can take <-pu> with meaning, and MO simply hasn't
}told us how this works yet.
We have plenty of canon with non-action verbs in -pu'. Being can be
perfective as much as actions can.
}Either interpretation yields the same fact - We do not know exactly how a
}Klingon would react to <tujpu'>. But here are my opinions.
}
}<tujpu'> = it was hot before, but no implication of its present state. This
}is just past tense. <-pu'> never gives this impression.
Right. This is NOT correct.
}<tujpu'> = it was hot and now is not hot. This seems likely, if we re-think
}<tuj> into an active verb "take the form of a hot thing".
Saying 'take the form of a hot thing' confuses you into thinking 'take ON
the form of a hot thing' and you're back to {tujchoH}.
}(Or as close to
}active as it can get - I'm not sure if this is properly active.) Adding
}<-pu'> yields "has completed taking the form of a hot thing" and thus, the
}subject is no longer intentionally hot. It may be still cooling off, but
}being hot is no longer a state in which the subject is engaged. So it isn't
}necessarily "not hot" now. BUT - I do not believe the concept "be hot" and
}the concept "take the form of a hot thing" are equivalent, so this one isn't
}for me either.
}
}That leaves two possibilities, either of which I might support. Either it
}does not work at all, or the state has passed and is no longer applicable to
}the subject (in the perspective of the speaker).
It may still be hot. It might not be hot yet. What's important is that the
hotness had already occured.
tujpu'mo' muD Dotlh wIb QIm
The milk is sour because the weather has been hot.
The milk was sour because the weather had been hot.
The milk will be sour because the weather will have been hot.
(Better ways to say this with {-choH} suggest themselves, but I think this
makes the point.
}Example: if I say <jIroppu'> what does it mean? "I am not sick" is
}<jIropbe'>. "I was sick" is something like <wa'Hu' jIrop>. I think, if it
}means anything, it means "My being sick is completed." Thus, I am well. maj.
I had been sick/I have been sick/I will have been sick.
qatlh bIDach? - Why were you absent?
jIroppu' - I've been sick.
DaH bIpIv'a'? - Are you better now?
It doesn't imply you are well now, except in that if you were still sick you
might simply say {jIrop}.
Qov [email protected]
Beginners' Grammarian