tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Dec 21 11:13:07 1998
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Re: KLBC Translation of: Re: mu'tlhegh ngo'
On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:01:13 -0800 (PST) David Trimboli
<[email protected]> wrote:
> From: Alan Anderson <[email protected]>
>
>
> >[jIQub; vaj jIH]
> >
> >ja' SuStel:
> >>qech DaQIjlaH'a'?
> >
> >vIQIjlaHbej.
> >
> >jIQub: jIval. yabwIj vIlo'chu'. jIvangpa' ghu' vIqelrup. mutoj pagh.
> >
> >vaj jIH: batlh vISuv. SuvwI' quv jIH. vajna' jIH.
> >
> >jIQub; vaj jIH.
>
>
> bIqID neH, 'ach jISagh.
'ach qIDchu' ghunchu'wI'. qID'a'Daj yItIv! chaq bISaghmo'
nargh bIHaghmeH 'eb.
> qarbe'chu' meqlIj. chay' potlh qechvam? qatlh mu'tlheghvam Sov Hoch?
>
> Qatlhchu' Decarte mu'tlhegh. 'u' Sov'eghghach je qel. taHmeH laH qelbe'.
>
> 'u' yIqel. naQ 'u'. wa' Doch tIn 'oH 'u''e'.
jIQoch. ghom'a' 'oH. veH Hutlh wa' ghom neH. ghomvam 'oH 'u''e'.
> 'u' luchenmoH 'ay'mey law',
> 'ach reH wa' Doch naQ 'oH 'u'.
Hoch ngaS 'u'. chenmeH 'u', jeS Hoch.
> nagh yIqel. wa' 'u' Doch 'oH nagh'e'. Qubbe'.
pIch wIghaj'a'? wej wIyajmeH jatlh neH.
> QoghIj ghajbe'. yab
> ghajbe'. ***Sov'eghbe'***. <jIH> yajlaHbe'.
chaq Sov'egh 'ach latlh SovlaHbe', vaj jatlhbe'. tamchu'taH.
reH QubtaH neH.
> 'u' nagh je luchevlu'pu'be'.
> wa' 'u' Doch 'oH nagh'e' 'e' Sovbe' nagh.
chaq nIb 'u' nagh je 'e' Har nagh. HurDaj wIqeltaHvIS neH,
qoDDaj neH qel nagh.
> Ha'DIbaH yIqel. wa' 'u' Doch 'oH Ha'DIbaH'e'. Qubbe'. (teHchu'be', 'a 'e'
> Har Descarte.)
Descarte Qagh Datu'law' 'e' DaHartaHvIS chaq naghmey DaqelDI'
rap QaghlIj QaghDaj je 'e' Har latlh. *Philosopher* Damoj
DaneHchugh vaj *Philosophy* DaSIQnIS. {{:)>
> QoghIj ghaj 'ach yab ghajbe'. ***Sov'eghbe'***. Duj neH
> lo'. <jIH> yajlaHbe'.
<jIH> yajlaHbe' be'nI'wI'. DIvI' Hol neH jatlhlaH.
> 'u' Ha'DIbaH je luchevlu'pu'be'. wa' 'u' Doch 'oH
> nagh'e' 'e' Sovbe' nagh.
>
> DaH ghot yIqel. wa' 'u' Doch ghaH (ghaH!!!) ghot'e', 'ej ngoDvam Sovqu'
> ghot. Sov'egh. yab ghaj. jatlhlaH <jIH> 'ej qech yaj. 'u'vo'
> chev'eghqu'.
mu'meyvam lo'DI' Descarte, le' lo'Daj. 'ach *French*ngan Hol
lo'. not "I think therefore I am" ghItlh. "England*ngan Hol 'oH.
> ngu''eghlaH QublaHwI' neH.
jIQoch. QumlaH QumwI' neH. <<bIQum vaj bIQublaw'.>> jIQub 'e'
vISov 'ach QublaH latlhpu'? not ngoDvam vISovlaHchu', 'ach
jIQumlaH. QumlaH latlhpu' je. QumlaHmo' Qublaw' je. not Qumchugh
vaj QublaHbe' 'e' vItoblaHbe'. vIDajlaH neH. QumlaHbe'law'chugh
vay' QublaHbe'law'. mururchugh QumlaHlaw' 'ej QumlaHbe'.
*Decarte*vaD *Decarte* rurbe'law' Ha'DIbaH vaj QublaHbe'. qa'
Hutlhlaw' Ha'DIbaH. Ha'DIbaH mInDu' vIbejDI' QumlaHlaw'.
QubtaHlaw'. qa' ghaj.
chaq QubtaH nagh je. pIch vISuqlaHbe'.
> ngu''eghlaHbe' nagh, ngu''eghlaHbe' Ha'DIbaH.
ngoDHey wItoblaHbe'.
> vaj QublaHchugh vay', Sov'eghlaH vay'vam, 'ej ngu''eghlaH vay'vam.
But what of the selfless who give themselves to some cause or
another? What of the mentally handicapped who through injury or
altered development lack what we can recognize from the outside
as self-awareness? What of the drugged or the sleeping? What of
the Zen meditator who achieves the goal of loss of self? There
are those who can think, but are not self-aware.
Heck, check me out when I'm playing a video game or building a
model or playing music. When the experience is perfect, I am not
self-aware.
> vaj
> jatlh, <jIQub, vaj jIH.> <jIH> yajlaH QubwI' neH.
>
> Thought independent of instinct which permits you to be self-aware causes
> you to be able to distinguish yourself from the rest of the universe.
The distinction between instinct and intentional thought is a
fuzzy one at best. Think not? Walk to the edge of a cliff and
ponder stepping off the edge a while. Those with bungee cords or
parachutes do it all the time, so it is not just an instinct. It
is a conscious thought, but it grips you as strongly as any
instinct.
Besides, this kind of arbitrary distinction is used all the time
by those who wish to devalue members of other groups in order to
make it easier to kill them without thinking of it as murder. I
remember early in Desert Storm when it was reported that
"nobody" died in that military action when the "enemy" death
toll was being estimated at about 400,000 people^h^h^h^h^h^h
Iraqis.
Racists honestly believe that those of the "other" race don't
think. They are animals, and like animals, they don't have
souls. It's okay to kill them.
Carnivores honestly believe that cattle and deer with pleading
eyes have no soul and so it is okay to kill them to eat them.
They don't really think. They don't really feel. It's all just
instincts and conditioning. No real thought. No real feelings.
Vegetarians rip up soybeans thousands of acres at a time. They
slice wheat away from nurturing roots and rip asparagus out of
the ground. No thought. It's not murder, really.
Highway construction workers dynamite bedrock by the metric ton
daily. No pain. No thought. It's not like they are hurting
anything.
Meanwhile, for all we know, Mother Nature is plotting her
revenge... Two million years ago, when the cockroach
anthropologists dig up remains of human civilization, will they
suspect that we had souls?
> In "I
> think, therefore I am," the "I am" part refers to one's existence
> independent from the rest of the universe, which is unaware of its own
> existence.
Speciesist rhetoric!
> The Klingon {jIH} serves this idea even better than "I am,"
> because it is used as a verb in many sentences.
It is used as a verb in a specific grammatical construction
which includes another noun as its object. No object, and it
can't act as a verb, except in the locative sense.
> UNIVERSEUNIVERSEUNI
> VERSEROCKUNIVERSEUN
> IVERSE"ME"UNIVERSEU
> NIVERSEUNIVERSEUNIV
> ERSEANIMALUNIVERSEU
> NIVERSEUNIVERSEUNIV
>
> I am self-aware, therefore I can put quotes around myself. I can label
> myself as a distinct part of the universe: "I". Rocks and animals cannot do
> this.
No. Rocks and animals do not express this in a language we can
identify. We assume that they cannot do so. We assume that the
lack of communication is their responsibility and not ours, and
we assume that without that communication, there can't be
anything going on in there.
If you've ever spent time with animals, you'd know this is an
absurd concept. I've known some animals who were clearly more
intelligent than some of the people I've known. They didn't
speak English so well, but then, I've known apparently stupid
birds who could speak English and apparently smart dogs, cats
and horses who couldn't.
I've heard cows communicate quite clearly their sense of loss as
their calves were taken from them. I've heard people say things
that could be considered evidence that they CAN'T think.
> SuStel
> Stardate 98965.0
HovpoH 98972.76
charghwI' 'utlh