tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Jun 12 16:17:31 1996

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Re: To greet or not to greet? The canonical question

Warning: I have answered this long post with a long post.  However, I think
that I've done a good job, so I hope you try to read it all!  Before I begin,
let me say that I quite agree that one shouldn't be too harsh with someone
for using {nuqneH} in what some (including me) consider an incorrect way, but
I also feel that we should correct that which seems to be wrong (again, to
some of us), rather than ignore it.  There's no need to be vicious about it!

(By the way, I commend you, jaj, on a very well-thought and well-written
post.)

In a message dated 96-06-12 11:22:04 EDT, jaj wrote:

>nuqneH

qajang vIneH!  {{:-)

[. . .]

>The very first page  in TKD:
>What do you want? (greeting) nuqneH
>
>p97 nuqneH what do you want? (greeting) (excl)
>Clearly it's an exclamation not just a literal  question.

Clearly {tugh} is an adverbial being used as an exclamation, but that doesn't
mean it's not also an imperative.

>Conversational Klingon: "nuqneH is the ONLY greeting."

I certainly agree that "newbies" should not be yelled at (too harshly) for
initiating a conversation with {nuqneH}, but . . .

While {nuqneH} is certainly a greeting, TKD does *not* explain how to use it.
 This means that while it may be possible to use it in exactly the same way
as we use "hello" in English, there is no reason to *assume* that it's used
in exactly the same way.  I am of the camp that believes it should only be
used when you are actually inquiring about the intentions or desires of the
other person.  Just as you believe that because Okrand calls it a "greeting,"
and because "hello" is a greeting, then {nuqneH} is equivalent to "hello"; so
I believe that Okrand calls it a "greeting" because it is used at the
beginning of a conversation to get the other person to state his or her
business.

As for your "by the book" argument, {yIleghchugh} seems to me to be a
perfectly valid word (by the book), yet it is totally meaningless.  Do you
suggest that the Beginner's Grammarian not correct these mistakes because
they are not prohibited by TKD?

>As I mentioned before, in the KLI's restored Hamlet there are many
>instances where nuqneH is used as a conversation opener. eg. Act I
>scene II, Horey'So, on entering, says to Hamlet (who is already
>there), "nuqneH joH quv!".Important point here being that it is
>Horey'So who is the incomer and he is the one who says nuqneH, not
>Hamlet, who incidentally, does not say "I don't know, what do *you*
>want Horey'So?" :-)

Although I greatly admire the work done with Hamlet and am enjoying it
thoroughly (ghItlhrajmo' SavanneS, mughwI'pu' choHwI'pu' je!), I dislike this
use of {nuqneH} which consistently occurs.  Early on, the Endnotes describe
{nuqneH} as the traditional word for "hello."  As I have stated, I believe
{nuqneH} is a greeting which really does mean "What do you want" (or
"whaddyawant" as Okrand pronounces it).

Don't forget that Hamlet is a work put together by the KLI, not Okrand.

>What others have said against nuqneH as a greeting seemes to boil
>down to this: 
>
>1) Earthers don't normally say "What do you want?" to
>open a conversation, therefore neither would Klingons. (this is a 
>rather Earthly viewpoint, besides it's taking the greeting too 
>literally)

I think you're taking the word "greeting" too literally.  I also think it is
you who has the "Earthly viewpoint."  On Earth (or at least, in all of the
Earth languages I know anything about), it is common to say a certain,
meaningless phrase (such as "hello) to begin a conversation.  Why should
Klingons want to do such a thing?  You only need a word like "hello" if you
want to do this.  Since Klingons *don't* want to say this (and Okrand makes
this explicit), there is absolutely *no need* for any such word.  Since a
Klingon begins a conversation by stating his business, why would he begin a
conversation by saying {nuqneH}?  It has nothing to do with his business!

Here's how I see the situation: you want to say hello to the list.  You are
speaking in Klingon.  Therefore, you begin to look for a way to translate
"hello."  Not finding the word in the dictionary, you remember that {nuqneH}
is used as a "greeting."  Since "hello" is a greeting, you say, "Aha!  I can
{nuqneH} to mean 'hello'!"

>2) Klingons wouldn't waste time with "greetings". (why do they have one 
>then?)

I suppose I answered this above.

>3) If it ever was used as a greeting it would only be expressed *to*
>the incomer not *by* the newcomer, as in a bartender to a customer
>(However, see ref to Hamlet above)
>
>These  sorts of argument seem to be entirely based on opinion.
>On the other hand, canon, states that nuqneH is *the* Klingon greeting.

I would suggest that the problem here is not the translation of the Klingon
word {nuqneH}, but rather, Okrand's use of the word "greeting."  Again, I
don't think he means "greeting" as "pointless thing to say before you start
talking."

>Therefore I suggest, whilst one may choose not to use nuqneH, one
>shouldn't criticise others who may choose to do so.

I will continue to "criticise" this usage with my above arguments.  However,
as is my personal policy, I am only harsh when speaking in Klingon!  Thus,
while I may say {<nuqneH> Dalo'Ha'pu'} and leave it at that, my English will
be filled with "probably"s, and "perhaps"es, and all sorts of polite
paraphanelia.

>It seems to me that if people don't like what Marc Okrand has
>written they should get him to change his language rather than
>criticise people who use it correctly - by the book.

The book doesn't say what it means by "greeting."  Therefore, you don't know
how to use it "correctly" any more than I do.

>Point being, if someone comes on this listing and uses the Klingon
>language correctly, I don't think he should be told that he's wrong
>just because some Earthers don't think it sounds right to them.

I think you're getting a bit mixed up now.  It's an Earth custom to say
"hello" or the like, and a Klingon custom to state your business.  The
Klingon language does not support pointless words like "hello"!  It is your
opinion that using {nuqneH} at any time is correct, and it is my opinion that
using {nuqneH} at any time is incorrect.  We both think we're right.

>Note that it is not "nuq neH"  it is a word in it's own right. 

We never said it was [nuq neH}.  It is also not {nuq DaH}, which is
essentially what it means.  Okrand says {nuqneH} means "whaddyawant."  {nuq
neH} means "What does he want?"

>I  could imagine an non-Earther asking, "Why do you say Hi?". Fact
>is, we do, and that's all there is to it. That's how the language is
>spoken - you don't need to be concerned with derivations or whys and
>wherefores. 

Just because we don't necessarily understand the need to say "hello," doesn't
mean that Klingon greetings are also mysterious.  There's no reason to assume
that Klingons want to say "hello," or that they don't know when they should
say {nuqneH}.  That certainly isn't in TKD!

>Why not think of nuqneH as being like the English "At your service".
>I know a Klingon probably wouldn't want to be so servile. That's why
>he says nuqneH instead. It sounds more direct, more aggressive, but
>essential it can have the same type of meaning. Hence in Hamlet, it
>is said to a superior as a greeting, just as one might say "At
>your service, my lord" or the like. . This makes it very appropriate 
>to use as an introductory greeting on this listing.

"Sounds"?  You imply that you are using Klingon as an amusing code for
English, giving {nuqneH} the equivalent meaning of "At your service."
 Klingons are not interested with pretext; either you are strong, or you die.
 Either you are dominant, or you are servile.  Klingons simply don't say
things they don't mean.  No, it's not in TKD.  But do you doubt it?

I've already stated that I disagree with the usage in Hamlet, which is not
canon.  If you want to show great deference to someone, use {-neS}, or at
least do what they tell you.

>Don't take "nuqneH"  so literally.

Don't pass it off as a meaningless phrase used as a tag.  Take it literally.
 :)

Here's one more reason which I think supports my argument.  If Klingons
commonly began conversations with "hello"-style words, then why is there only
one?  In English, we have zillions: "Hi there," "How's it going," "What's
up?"  "How are you?", none of which need be taken literally!  (Although I
often do, to the great annoyance of my acquaintances!  "What's up?"  "It's a
direction which is antiparallel to the direction of force in a gravitational
field.")  If Klingons wanted to do this sort of thing, then why is there only
one greeting?  I really don't believe that Okrand decided that there is but
one greeting simply because.

To sum it up: Klingons use greetings as functional parts of the language, not
as vestigial words.  This is not stated explicitly in any canon, but it is
supported by everything we know about Klingons.  The only time we should see
{nuqneH} being used as the very first thing being said by the person who
walks in the door is when it is a newbie speaking.  In that case, someone
such as the Beginner's Grammarian should gently, but firmly correct the
mistake as all other mistakes.

SuStel
Hovjaj 96448.8

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