tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sat Jun 01 11:37:29 1996
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Late night ramblings (was "under")
- From: Steven Boozer <[email protected]>
- Subject: Late night ramblings (was "under")
- Date: Sat, 1 Jun 96 13:37:47 CDT
- In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 31 May 1996 23:38:40 -0700
Several people wrote:
>>>> nagh bIngDaq vIyIn.
>>>
>>> "I live it in/at a rock's below-area."
>>>It's close. You got the "under a rock" meaning okay, but the verb
>>>prefix ought to be {jI-} since there is no object in the sentence.
>>
>>Isn't "a rock's below-area" an object?
... and I replied:
>{nagh bIngDaq} is an adverbial phrase. Substitute another adverb to see
>how it works:
> nIteb jIyIn I live alone.
> naDev jIyIn I live here.
> pa' jIyIn I live over there.
>
>Hmmm... wait a minute. {pa'} and {naDev} are NOUNS in Klingon, not
>"adverbials" (which according to TKD 5.4 "describe the manner of the
>activity"). The adverbials listed are adverbs of manner or time, not place
>(like "here", "there" and "everywhere" in English) or conjunctions (like
>{vaj}).
>
>Maybe {nagh bIngDaq} IS the object after all, though there's no canon for
>{yIn} taking an object _per se_. We have a similar use of {-Daq} in:
> SoHDaq qeylIS qa' yInjaj
> May the spirit of Kahless live within you! (PK)
>Since the example is in the third person, the verb prefixes don't give
>a clue as to what's going on and the formulaic use of {-jaj} causes the
>subject and verb to swap positions in the sentence.
>
>This needs some more thought.
>
>Steven
>jIDoy' 'ej jImISqu'. vaj jIQongnISbej!
In the clear morning light, I must retract the above. {nagh bIngDaq} is
NOT the object of {yIn}. Lesson: never post to a discussion list at 1:00
in the morning!
The point I think I was making is that we should be careful to analyze
Klingon in its own terms and not impose English (or any other) grammatical
terminology on it. This is doubly hard since we are discussing tlhIngan
Hol in English and are trying to teach other English speakers (for the
most part!) about 1) Klingon specifically, and 2) basic English grammar
(in a few cases).
For example: {nagh DungDaq} "above the rock" (TKD)
"Above" is a preposition in English, but a noun ("area under") in Klingon.
Another one: {Dargh wIb} "sour tea" (CK)
"Sour" is an adjective in English, but a verb ("be sour") in Klingon. This
syntax is a little unusual too, in that we might have expected {wIbbogh
Dargh} ("the tea which is sour") - but that's the topic for another thread.
Consider myself properly flamed.
Steven
____________________________________________________________________________
Steven L. Boozer | Who adheres slavishly to the order of words
Univ. of Chicago Library | or sentences in the original will meet with
--------------------------- | much difficulty; his rendering will be
[email protected] | faulty and untrustworthy. (Maimonides)