tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Aug 06 15:01:28 1996

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Re: how to say "any"


T::>> DIvI'Daq jatlhlu' Hol Dajatlh'a' SoH

T::>Too many main verbs, and word-order problems.  If you make it "Hol
 ::>jatlhlu'bogh" you've probably got something.  Otherwise you have two main
 ::>verbs, and the language is the one doing the speaking.

 I'm not sure I follow you entirely; I do agree that I missed
 the <-bogh>, however.

 So if I'm interpreting your statement correctly, you're
 suggesting that <DIvI'Daq jatlhlu' Hol> should be replaced by
 <DIvI'Daq Hol jatlhlu'bogh>, making the resulting sentence
 <DIvI'Daq Hol jatlhlu'bogh Dajatlh'a' SoH>.

T::>> {tlhIngan Hol} uses OVS (object-verb-subject) order (where a
 ::>> locative can apparently replace an object; look back at my
 ::>> first sentence in the list); try to break up your sentences
 ::>> into those three components. If necessary, do the same with
 ::>> each component, as I did above:

T::>The locative doesn't replace an object.  It's a locative, neither subject
 ::>nor object.  See TKD p.60 for a sentence mentioning that, and the example
 ::>"pa'Daq yaS vIleghpu'" (I have seen the officer in the room.)

 OK, I see.  I suspect that what confused me was that the
 sentences I had been using as models either didn't have objects
 at all, or had objects that were omitted as discernible from
 context (assuming that the latter is grammatically legal).

T::>> So now we have {DIvI'Daq <they-speak> Hol}, and <they-speak> is
 ::>> {jatlhlu'}.  Therefore, "a language which is spoken in the
 ::>> Federation" becomes {DIvI'Daq jatlhlu' Hol}, and this phrase in
 ::>> its entirety becomes the object of our original sentence.  So,
 ::>> substitute it for <Fed-lang> above, and get the original
 ::>> {tlhIngan Hol} sentence I proposed:

T::>Not quite, since "a language is spoken in the Federation" is "DIvI'Daq Hol
 ::>jatlhlu'", since the language remains the OBJECT and must come first.  And
 ::>since you want a language WHICH is spoken, you need "DIvI'Daq Hol
 ::>jatlhlu'bogh."

 BINGO!  Now it comes clear, and I see where I goofed - I didn't
 follow the concept I had abbreviated as <Fed-lang> back
 _far_enough_, and then I didn't check TKD as thoroughly as I
 should have.

 The key (to my understanding/enlightenment, anyway) is the
 "literal" translation of <DIvI'Daq Hol jatlhlu'>:
 "They-indefinite speak a language in the Federation", which, as
 TKD notes (p.39), is also translatable as you did.

T::>> Now, I'm morally certain that I've made not less than one
 ::>> serious mistake here; I eagerly await correction by one of the
 ::>> more experienced and knowledgeable members of the list.

T::>Only two, really.  Not too bad.

 Well, that's "at least one" ... :)

T::>Yep.  It's called assimilation (resistance is useless.  You will be
 ::>assimilated).  I mentioned that myself a few posts ago, that this is the
 ::>one example of assimilation we've seen, at least in Klingon orthography.

 Thank you - "assimilation" was the word that I couldn't think
 of when I wrote that.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      [email protected]
---
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