tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Aug 15 19:59:37 2014
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Fwd: Catholic priest seeks recording of prayer in Klingon
- From: "Robyn Stewart" <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Fwd: Catholic priest seeks recording of prayer in Klingon
- Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 20:59:25 -0600
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-CA link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I thought about this while I was flying (sent it just before leaving) and I at first stumbled over bISop – reading it as “you eat”. Is there any dialect where it’s actually pronounced that way? where I live it’s more like bISIp or bISap. I kind of liked bISap, because an accidental misreading as the verb sort of suits it.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> David Holt [mailto:[email protected]] <br><b>Sent:</b> August 15, 2014 19:24<br><b>To:</b> [email protected]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Fwd: Catholic priest seeks recording of prayer in Klingon<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>ghItlh voragh:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444;background:white'>> Was Isidor a medical doctor - i.e. a physician {Qel} - or a doctor of philosophy? If the latter, call him a {ghojmoHwI'} "teacher". As</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444;background:white'>> someone pointed out earlier a bishop is etymologically an overseer, so either {vu'wI'} "manager" or {loHwI'} "magistrate" (lit.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444;background:white'>> "administrator") work.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444;background:white'>"Bishop" is a specialized term and all of the translations on Fr. Z's page use one of the various transliterations of it, so I am happy to do the same. As for "Doctor", I am much less familiar with Latin and didn't realize that it actually meant teacher. As far as I can tell, Isidore was not a medical physician, but is definitely described as an educator, so I have to decide whether to transliterate it or translate it. I don't think "Doctor" is as well known a term among followers of the Roman church and I think I prefer a translation in this instance.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>ghItlh Qov:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#333333;background:white'>> {bISop} Qel je {San ‘ISIDor} ‘ej nuboQ ‘e’ wIqoy’. </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#333333;background:white'>> The ‘ej in this sentence seems misplaced. Is the sentence supposed to be:</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#333333;background:white'>> nuboQ {bISop} Qel je {San ‘ISIDor} ‘e’ wIqoy’.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#333333;background:white'>DopDaq qul yIchenmoH QobDI' ghu' - I left out a verb. It was supposed to say: {bISop} Qel je ghaH {San 'ISIDor'e'} 'ej nuboQ 'e' wIqoy'.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#333333;background:white'>Though, the apposition might be better, so I'm actually going to go with Qov's.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#333333;background:white'>> yIghoSmoH --> tIghoSmoH</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#333333;background:white'>HIja'</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#333333;background:white'>> wIghomboghvaD – the -vaD belongs on the noun, not the verb, and shouldn’t it be DI-?</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#333333;background:white'>I wasn't sure about the {-vaD}, so I checked in TKD and it only said, "The whole construction (relative clause plus head noun), as a unit, is used in a sentence as a noun." But if you say the {-vaD} goes on the actual noun, I'm happy to go with that. I'll address {wI-} vs. {DI-} below.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#333333;background:white'>> Review the rules for Hoch: you may find you need nuvpu’ to convey the meaning you want.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#333333;background:white'>I think I actually prefer {Hoch nuv}, but {Hoch nuvpu'} does more closely match the originals. I have no way to support this, but I felt like {Hoch nuv} should use {wI-} and {Hoch nuvpu'} should use {DI-}.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#333333;background:white'>ghItlh ghunchu'wI':</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444;background:white'>> <pIrurmeH juchenmoH> vImaS.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444;background:white'>It feels a little like it could be an explanation of why he didn't give the job to one of his underlings, but I don't have any strong objections to it, so I'll change it.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444;background:white'>> </span><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444'>I don't like how {SoHvo' boghbogh puqloD} seems to imply</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444'>> a physical "born from" which would naturally apply to the mother.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444'>> I think {puqloD DaboghmoHbogh} works a lot better. Also, {neH}</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444'>> here feels inappropriate to me. Perhaps {mob} would be preferable.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444;background:white'>I'm fine with your sentence suggestion, but {mob} seems to imply more of a "lonely" type of alone and {neH} a "singularly" type of alone. Am I alone in that or do any of the advance speakers disagree with ghunchu'wI' here?</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444;background:white'>> [I thought {QIStoS} was the accepted transliteration, but I'm not a student of the original Greek text.]</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444;background:white'>As I said previously (though you may have missed it), for this project I am ignoring the Greek texts (which definitely end the title in "s"), since this prayer was actually written in Liturgical Latin and English. In the Roman church, a number of different variations are used (I imagine they are declensions of the Latin), but as I looked through the various translations on Fr. Z's blog, the most common transliterations ended in "o".</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444;background:white'>> Instead of a {ghaHbogh} phrase, simple apposition ought to work: {joH'a'ma'vo' QISto'vo'}. Skybox SP1 gives a perfect example of</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444;background:white'>> this, with the phrase {juHqo'vo' Qo'noSvo'}.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444;background:white'>The {ghaHbogh} phrase bothered me, but I wasn't comfortable for how I should do apposition. I'll change it.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444;background:white'>ghItlh voragh:</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444;background:white'>> FYI: from KGT (p. 152f.) we have the slang term {Ho'} "idol, someone worthy of emulation" which might work for saint.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444;background:white'>It certainly seems like a likely definition to be used by Romans, though, being a follower of a reformed church myself, I would prefer {choqwI'}. However, the Romans tend to use variation of the Latin rather than translate it and that holds true for the majority of the translations on Fr. Z's page.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444;background:white'>So here's where I am now:</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444'>weQmoQnaQDaq bIrarpa' tayvam yIjatlh:</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444'>'o Qun'a', SoH HoS law' Hoch HoS puS 'ej reH bItaHtaH. pIrurmeH juchenmoH. Hoch QaQ, Hoch teH, Hoch 'IH je DInej 'e' Dara'. puqloD DaboghmoHbogh neH ghaH {yeSu' QISto''e'} 'ej Qun porgh ghaH 'ej joH'a'ma' ghaH. ghaHDaq QaQwI', teHwI', 'IHwI' je DInejnIS je. nuboQ {bISop} ghojmoHwI' je {San 'ISIDor} 'e' wIqoy'. weQmoQnaQDaq malengtaHvIS ghopDu'majvaD mInDu'majvaD je nIbelmoHbogh Dochmey neH tIghoSmoH 'ej Hoch nuvpu' DIghomboghvaD ghoberghHa'moH 'ej ghotuvmoH. joH'a'ma'vo' QISto'vo' wItlhob. {'amen}.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#444444'>Jeremy</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></body></html>_______________________________________________
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