tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Jul 14 19:00:42 2013
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] bom'e' vImughpu'bogh
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-CA link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Brian Cote [mailto:[email protected]] <br><b>Sent:</b> July 14, 2013 12:45 AM<br><b>To:</b> [email protected]<br><b>Subject:</b> [Tlhingan-hol] bom'e' vImughpu'bogh<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div name=divtagdefaultwrapper id=divtagdefaultwrapper><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Hello everyone. qen 'IH bomvam'e' DIS 1971 qonbogh jan lennon vImugh. </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I know what you’re trying to say, but the construction you are trying for in this sentence, is not working. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You want “I recently translated this beautiful song which John Lennon wrote in 1971.” <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Remember that bomvam ‘IH is “this beautiful song” and ‘IH bomvam is “this song is beautiful.”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You can’t build a noun1 noun2 construction with a type-5 on the first noun, so I have to interpret the first noun as independent, not part of the subject or object. So I get ...<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Recently this very song is beautiful I translate John Lennon who composed the year 1971.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>or<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Recently this very song is beautiful I translate the year 1971 which John Lennon composed.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Plus a couple of style notes: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>*<b>we don’t usually transliterate proper nouns: just leave it as John Lennon.<br></b>* DIS 1971 looks really weird to me. I’m pretty sure all the examples are as [tera’] DIS wa’SaD Hutvatlh SochmaH wa’.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><<Imagine>> 'oH, 'ach <<yIqel>> vIpong. </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I like that choice very much.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>lughchugh pab jItu'meH naDev vIlan. botIv 'e' vItul je.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You want to say “I put it here to find if the grammar is correct, but the kind of “if” that means “whether” isn’t –chugh.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>How about lugh pab ‘e’ vI’olmeH naDev vIlan. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Now the song.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Imagine there's no heaven<br>it's easy if you try<br>no hell below us<br>above us only sky<br>imagine all the people<br>living for today<br><br>yIqel. Suto'vo'qor Dun<br>tu'lu'be'.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>ngeD. yInID.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br></span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>qo' bIngDaq ghe'tor<br>botu'laHbe'. yIchID.<br>yIqel. vaj neHchugh Hoch,<br>wa'leS yInchoHlaH.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It’s not a close translation, but it’s not ungrammatical. I don’t know if you haven’t used ‘e’ because it doesn’t scan, or because you don’t know how to use it. You should learn about it. The word ‘e’ not the affix –‘e’.<br></span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><br>Imagine there's no countries<br>it isn't hard to do<br>nothing to live or die for<br>and no religion too<br>imagine all the people<br>living life in peace<br><br>yIqel. pagh Sep, pagh qo' je.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Not a sentence.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>lIQatlhbe'. </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Qatlh is not a verb that tlhIH can easily be the object of, and it certainly doesn’t make sense here. Also as you are consistently addressing 2<sup>nd</sup> person plural now, earlier imperatives with no object should be with pe-. peqel.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>DaH Salay'.<br>vaj yIntaHmeH qoj HeghmeH<br>pagh meq'e' naDlu'bogh.<br>yIqel. vaj neHchugh Hoch,<br>roj 'oH ngoQmaj'e'.<br><br>You, you may say I'm a dreamer<br>but I'm not the only one<br>I hope someday you'll join us<br>And the world will be as one.<br><br>rut, rut jInajtaH. Dajatlhjaj.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>-jaj translates may only in the sense of “O may I finally win the lottery.” The idea you are translating there wants chaq.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>'a jImobtaHbe'. ghomuv.<br>chaq 'opleS latlh boqIHlaH,<br>tagha' tay'choHbejmo' Hoch.<br><br>Imagine no possessions<br>I wonder if you can<br>No need for greed or hunger<br>A brotherhood of man<br>Imagine all the people<br>Sharing all the world <br><br>yIqel. pay' pagh wIghajchugh,<br>DaHar'a'? </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br></span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>rut jISIv.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>This is: “If we suddenly have nothing, do you believe it? Sometimes I wonder.”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>possibly “If we suddenly had nothing would you believe it? Sometimes I wonder.”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>but it’s not “I wonder if you can.” <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>How about: pagh wIghaj ‘e’ DaHarlaH ‘e’ vISIv. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>wa' nugh chenmoH Hoch ghotpu'.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>moj is more appropriate here, or with some rewording, chen.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>qurbe' ghungbe' 'ej. </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>qur and ghung are verbs, so the connecting conjunction goes between them.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>nIv.<br>yIqel. vaj neHchugh Hoch,<br>nItebHa' yInlaH.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I am not a music person so I can’t answer to whether the verse scans, but I assume that is your reason for diverging from the original wording. Remember that in English if you say “Consider” the person is expecting the thing to consider to follow, but in Klingon the thing to consider would normally precede, so the song may be choppier than you realize.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You might learn more if you attempted a closer translation of the words, without worrying about syllable count or rhyme. I do understand the urge to render something you like in your native language into Klingon.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Qov<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>_______________________________________________
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