tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Jan 31 08:29:20 2013
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 'ar again
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jatlh SuStel:<br><div>> I don't think {'ar} ever means "what portion?". With countable nouns it<br>> means "how many?", and with non-countable nouns it means "what amount?".<br><br>vIjang jIH, jIjatlh:<br>> I know of absolutely no evidence to support a grammatical distinction<br>> between countable and non-countable nouns in Klingon.<br><br>jang SuStel, jatlh:<br>> It's not a distinction in Klingon; it's a distinction in the English <br>> translation. How {'ar} is translated depends on context, but it's<br>> always {'ar} no matter what the translation.<br><br>yaj.<br><br>taH SuStel:<br>> bIQ 'ar<br>> how much water?<br>> (unless you're talking about water served in cups, in which case the<br>> translation would be "how many waters?", but the distinction is an<br>> English one, not a Klingon one)<br><br>jIH:<br>> So if it works in this direction (a -count noun is treatable as +count<br>> noun), why do you contend it doesn't work in the other direction?<br><br>SuStel:<br>> I don't. I contend that {'ar} either counts the number of things that <br>> are countable, or the quantity—not portion—of things that are not.<br><br>So for you, is {nIn Hoch natlhlu'pu'} - which specifies a portion, and not a number - not an acceptable answer to the question {nIn 'ar natlhlu'pu'}?<br><br>SuStel:<br>> Since {Hol} is a countable noun, the correct translation would be<br>> Hol 'ar<br>> how many languages?<br>> The translation would not be "how much of a particular language?",<br>> though I could see a metaphorical "sea of language" {Hol bIQ'a'} leading<br>> to the phrase {Hol 'ar} "how much (of the sea of) language?".<br><br>jIH:<br>> This argument fails for me in that it imposes the English +/-count<br>> distinction onto Klingon where no evidence for such a distinction<br>> exists. I don't understand why a Hol bIQ'a' should be treated any<br>> differently from a Hol alone,<br><br>SuStel:<br>> Now that I've stated clearly that the Klingon does NOT make this <br>> distinction, do you see how {Hol 'ar} and {Hol bIQ'a' 'ar} are <br>> grammatically the same?<br><br>I think we're talking past each other on this point; I already agreed that {Hol 'ar} and {Hol bIQ'a' 'ar} are grammatically the same. I was labouring under the impression that you saw them as somehow different.<br><br>jIH:<br>> and I'd contend that {Hol 'ar Dajatlh} can<br>> mean either "how many languages do you speak?" or "how much of the<br>> language(s) do you speak?",<br><br>SuStel:<br>> Let me turn the must-show-evidence argument back at you. I see <br>> absolutely no evidence that {'ar} means "how much of <something>?" The <br>> translation is "how much?", not "how much of?" Can you point to any such <br>> evidence?<br><br>Nothing unequivocal, but we have only a single canon instance of {'ar} in a sentence with a -count noun; the English for {nIn 'ar wIghaj?} (PK) was given as "how much fuel do we have left?", which can be interpreted either as a quantity, or as a portion, and the parallel sentence {nIn Hoch natlhlu'pu'} from KGT pushed me in the direction of the portion interpretation. Anyway, Klingon entirely lacks a grammatical tool for expressing the partitive in general. Call it an assumption, but I didn't think "how much of?" was too far of a jump from translations like the following:<br><br>wa' tlhIngan ghob potlhqu'<br>"one of the [sic] most important Klingon virtues" (S13)<br><br>(Yes, I get that the Klingon says "one very important Klingon virtue".) At any rate, I understand what you mean now.<br><br>QeS<br></div> </div></body>
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