tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Jan 30 05:36:29 2013
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 'ar again
> Yes, I would avoid {chay'} for this. Klingon {chay'} is not like English "how":
> {chay' jura'?} - "What are your orders?", literally, "How do you command us?"
> {chay' Dochvam vIlo'?} - "What do I do with this?", literally, "How do
> I use this?"
>
> For {chay' Holvam Dajatlh?}, I would expect the answer to be {nujwIj vIlo'}.
Actually, I feel those examples point precisely to the fact that {chay'} needn't mean "How is it possible that...?", but can also mean "In what manner does...?"
For example, the answer to {chay' jura'?} isn't {nujDaj vIlo'.}, but, rather, say, {yIHoH!}, or (more fully) {boHoH 'e' vIra'!}.
So, {chay' Holvam Dajatlh?} probably wouldn't be a question about how you produce a comprehensible series of sounds, but rather one with regards to your dialect, level of proficiency, etc.
So, one acceptable answer to {chay' Holvam DajatlhlaH?} would probably be {vIjatlhlaHchu'!} or {loQ jIpo'.}, but it would probably be preferable to recast the sentence with multiple sentences or clauses:
Holvam Dajatlh. chay' bIpo'?
Holvam DajatlhmeH chay' bIpo'?
...or possibly:
Holvam laHlIj yIchov!
Holvam'e' chay' bIpo'?
...or, if one feels really daring:
Holvam jatlhlaHghachlIj yIchov!
Holvam jatlhlaHghach 'ar Dachavta'?
[Somewhat off-topic regarding {chay'}: I'd argue that in many cases when "How...?" is used in English, {qatlh} would be preferable in Klingon.
"How do you know my name?" = {qatlh pongwIj DaSov?} [I'm not really interested in your cognitive processes.]
"How can you speak our language?" = {qatlh Holmaj bojatlhlaH?} [It's not your method of speech that concerns me, but the chain of events leading to your ability to speak our language.]
Usually, it'd be even better to recast those as, for example, {chay' pongwIj Daghojpu'?}, but something like {chay' pongwIj DaSov?} makes very little sense to me.]
________________________________________
From: De'vID [[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 09:01
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 'ar again
De'vID:
>> "How many languages do you speak?" - {Hol 'ar Dajatlh?}
Voragh:
> qay'be'. loS Hol vIjatlh. (I speak 4 languages).
De'vID:
>> "How much of the language do you speak?" {Hol[vam] 'ar Dajatlh?}
Voragh:
> ?? wejmaH vagh vatlhvI' Holvam vIjatlh. (I speak 35% of this language. [??])
>
> I don't know what answer you're expecting. (A little? A lot?) You want to know how well I speak the language - e.g. Do'Ha' romuluSngan Hol vIjatlhchu'be' 'ej qarDaSngan Hol vIjatlhlaHbe'qu' (Unfortunately, I don't speak Romulan well and Cardassian not at all). In this case you should probably ask something like:
The background to my question is that I asked a beginner {Hol 'ar
DajatlhlaH?}, and he answered something along the lines of "How do you
say 'I'm just beginning to learn'?", which initially confused me,
until I realised he understood {'ar} to mean "how much [of the
language]" rather than "how many languages". I wanted to find out if
others understood {Hol 'ar} as I did or as he did.
Voragh:
> Holvam Dajatlhchu''a'?
> Do you speak this language well?
That's how I would ask someone if they were conversant. Although,
{jatlhchu'} may imply "fluent", which I don't think any conversant
speaker would actually claim.
Voragh:
> chay' Holvam Dajatlh?
> How do you speak this language.
>
> ... though don't be surprised if you get the answer: I speak with my mouth, I use my fingers, etc.
Yes, I would avoid {chay'} for this. Klingon {chay'} is not like English "how":
{chay' jura'?} - "What are your orders?", literally, "How do you command us?"
{chay' Dochvam vIlo'?} - "What do I do with this?", literally, "How do
I use this?"
For {chay' Holvam Dajatlh?}, I would expect the answer to be {nujwIj vIlo'}.
De'vID:
>> For the latter sentence, I can add {-vam} to make it clear I'm talking
>> about one language in particular. But if I ask, {Hol 'ar Dajatlh?},
>> would you understand it to be a question about how many languages one
>> speaks, or how much of one language one speaks? This is not a
>> theoretical question: I recently asked this of a Klingon beginner, and
>> he didn't understand the question the way I intended.
Voragh:
> Unhesitatingly: How many languages.
maj. So {'ar} is not as ambiguous as my exchange has led me to believe.
De'vID:
>> "How many ships were damaged?" - {rIQ Duj 'ar?}
>> "How much of the ship was damaged?" - {rIQ Duj[maj] 'ar?}
Voragh:
> If I were {ya}, how many ships -- assuming that there were more than one present). For the latter, I would have said: Duj QIH yIngu' (yIper)! (Identify [specify] the ship's damage).
maj. I think in the heat of battle I'd go with something like {QIH
Dotlh!} "damage report!" (verb is implied) or {Duj QIH [yI]ja'!}
"report ship damage!"
Voragh:
> {'ar} "how many" expects a number as an answer:
> {'ar} "how much" probably expects a number as well:
That's a very helpful way of looking at it. {Hol 'ar DajatlhlaH?} "How
many/much language(s) do you speak -- and I expect a number for an
answer?" It seems fairly obvious the question is intended to ask the
number of languages rather than the number (numeric percentage?) of
one language
--
De'vID
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