tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Nov 25 14:36:23 2007
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Re: nuqDaq 'oH puchpa''e'?
We seem to be making a lot of grammatical conclusions without much
backing. If Okrand ever explained any of this, we'd know. Otherwise,
given how little canon there is to back any of this up, we could be
making sweeping generalizations involving rules we are making up that
no Klingon speaker would consider accurate. It might just be
arbitrary wording that the speaker chose on whim, and we go running
off, making rules to make these choices exclusively right.
In other words, this might be something up with which maltz would not
put.
Maybe if we just spoke the language more and made fewer rules, we'd
advance the language farther.
Just my opinion.
Doq
On Nov 21, 2007, at 12:36 PM, Steven Boozer wrote:
> ghunchu'wI':
>>> Following this apparent pattern, {nuqDaq 'oH} is right for asking
>>> the
>>> location of a restroom in a building or the location of a good
>>> restaurant. {nuqDaq 'oHtaH} would be perfectly appropriate when
>>> referring to an already-known but mobile restroom or restaurant.
>
> Voragh:
>>> But again, as we've both remarked, the spoiler is:
>>>
>>> pa' 'oHtaH vaS'a''e'. tlhIngan qum waw' 'oH.
>>> This is where the Klingon Great Hall is located,
>>> the center of the Klingon government. S27
>
> mI'qey:
>> I suspect this isn't the conundrum it seems. It may be that the
>> identification of the Great Hall as the
>> center of government is seen not as contingent or temporary but as
>> true by
>> definition: the {vaS'a'} is
>> the center of government regardless of its location. Thus the
>> absence of
>> {-taH} in the second sentence is necessary.
>
> No argument here. {[NOUN2] [PRONOUN] [NOUN1]'e'} is used for basic
> statement of facts or identity. E.g. inter alia:
>
> yoq yIn yuQ 'oH Qo'noS'e'. yInSIp voQSIp je ngaS muDDaj.
> Qo'noS is a class-M planet with an oxygen/nitrogen atmosphere. S27
>
> mI'qey:
>> The first sentence has {-taH} either because the location is seen
>> as a
>> (possibly) temporary attribute (the Great Hall used to be across
>> town,
>> and/or they're breaking ground next week for a replacement Great
>> Hall up
>> the street), or because [... remainder of reply missing!]
>
> Voragh:
>>> The way I read this is that pronoun-as-verb statements of
>>> location require
>>> {-taH} on the pronoun, but questions of location (i.e. those with
>>> {nuqDaq}
>>> "where?}) do not. Whether the location is temporary or permanent
>>> seems to
>>> be irrelevant.
>
> I stand by this.
>
> On the other hand {nuqDaq [PRONOUN] [NOUN1]'e'} is used for asking
> locations. Perhaps {-taH} is omitted because {nuqDaq} is not an
> actual
> location (i.e. a noun), but rather a "question word". IOW the
> location is
> unknown. So perhaps we can restate this "rule"/"undocumented feature"
> as: {[NOUN2]Daq [PRONOUN]taH [NOUN1]'e'} is used for giving known/
> actual
> locations, temporary or permanent, with the following caveat:
>
> It is worth noting at this point that the concepts expressed
> by the English adverbs "here", "there", and "everywhere" are
> expressed by nouns in Klingon: {naDev} "hereabouts", {pa'}
> "thereabouts", {Dat} "everywhere" [...] Unlike other nouns,
> these three words are never followed by the locative suffix
> [{-Daq}]. [TKD p. 27f.]
>
>
>
>
> --
> Voragh
> Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
>
>
>