tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Nov 19 09:00:43 2007
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RE: nuqDaq 'oH puchpa''e'?
Qang qu'wI' wrote:
> > I would interpret {naDev tlhIngan maH} just as you quoted, "Here, we
> > are Klingons", but I would interpret {naDav maH tlhIngan'e'} as "The
> > Klingons here are us".
> >
> > For the puchpa''e' case, if you were in a circumstance in which you
> > were being informed about that screen in the corner with the bucket
> > behind it, you might hear {naDev puchpa' 'oH} "it is the bathroom
> > here." So substituting the question word {nuqDaq puchpa' 'oH} I think
> > could be interpreted as "Where is it the bathroom" in the sense of
> > "at what location would 'it' be (become, serve as) the bathroom."
DloraH:
>In these type of sentences like [nuqDaq 'oH puchpa''e'] the pronoun seems
>to be acting kind of like
>"is"/"does exist"
>
>* 'oH puchpa''e' - the toilet is/exists.
>nuqDaq 'oH puchpa''e' - the toilet is/exists where?
>Duj 'etDaq 'oH puchpa''e' - the toilet is/exists at the head of the ship.
>
>'oHbe' puchpa''e' - the toilet is not/exists not.
>Sure, people would most likely use tu'be'lu' or something, because the
>'oHbe' method sounds as
>marked as the english.
>
>What I find odd about all this is usually when canon locates something
>with a pronoun we tend to see
>pronoun-taH.
> pa'wIjDaq jIHtaH
> pa'DajDaq ghaHtaH la''e'
>
>Hmm, I also found:
> pa' jIHpu'be'
>It doesn't have -taH, but it does still have a type 7.
>
>So, I would have expected [nuQDaq 'oHtaH puchpa''e'].
The pronoun+{-taH} = "to be (located) somewhere" rule is not explicitly
stated by Okrand, but it is a pattern we've noticed by examining his
example sentences. Checking canon I see that {-taH} is usually omitted in
pronoun-as-verb sentences with {naDev}:
nuqDaq 'oH Qe' QaQ'e'
Where is a good restaurant? TKD
nuqDaq 'oH puchpa''e'
Where is the bathroom? TKD
(Clipped: nuqDaq puchpa'? [PK])
nuqDaq bIH
[Where are they?] ST6
nuqDaq 'oH jengva''e'
Where is the plate? KGT
nuqDaq 'oH ngop'e'
Where are the plates? KGT
nuqDaq bIH ngop'e'
Where are the plates? (childish error!) KGT
(Note BTW that the "childish error" Okrand discusses in KGT (p.33-34) is
using the collective noun {ngop} "plates" with the plural pronoun {bIH},
NOT in omitting the Type 7 suffix from the pronoun.)
... but not always:
jIHtaHbogh naDev vISovbe'
I'm lost. TKD
naDev bIHtaH
Here they are. PK
The evidence for {pa'} is also mixed. There are no examples with {-taH},
but there is one with {-pu'}:
pa' jIHpu'be'
I wasn't there. TKD
Perhaps using the perfective {-pu'} is an accepted alternative to {-taH} in
statements of location. Can anyone think of other examples?
pa' 'oHtaH vaS'a''e'. tlhIngan qum waw' 'oH.
This is where the Klingon Great Hall is located, the center of the
Klingon government. S27
Clearly {'oHtaH}. BTW notice the contrast with the next
sentence: {'oHtaH} vs. {'oH}. Was this an intentional bit of style?
As for {Dat} "everywhere" we have:
qatlh Dat DI tu'lu', tlhIngan
Why is there rubble everywhere, Klingon? CK
Not a pronoun-as-verb phrase, but one with {tu'lu'}.
Our only other example of {Dat} is the confusing:
qo'mey Sar charghtaHvIS chaH Dat tlhIngan may'Duj luleghDI' neH qIb nganpu'
buQpu' may'Duj 'ej ghIjpu' 'oH. nIteb ghIjpu' je Deghvam.
this symbol grew to become as feared throughout the galaxy as the menacing
profiles of their battlecruisers. SP1
Finally for reference, here's Okrand on the three locative nouns:
TKD pp. 27f.: It is worth noting at this point that the concepts expressed
by the English adverbs "here", "there", and "everywhere" are expressed by
nouns in Klingon: {naDev} "hereabouts", {pa'} "thereabouts", {Dat}
"everywhere". These words may perhaps be translated more literally as "area
around here," "area over there," and "all places," respectively. Unlike
other nouns, these three words are never followed by the locative suffix
[i.e. {-Daq}].
TKD p.69: The word for "where?", {nuqDaq}, is actually {nuq} "what?"
followed by the suffix {-Daq} locative (see section 3.3.5). As would any
locative phrase (see section 6.1), it comes at the beginning of the sentence.
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons