tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Jun 18 05:59:26 2004

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ghuH

MorphemeAddict ([email protected]) [KLI Member] [Hol taghwI']

[lay'tel SIvten's latest comments are preceded by "lS: ".]
lay'SIv:
>maghuH'a' maH?
"Are *we* ready?"

lS:  vImughHa'ta'.  "Are *we* ready?" jIjatlh vIneH, 'ach bImuj.  
*Do we prepare for...?*, *Are we preparing for...?*, *Are we alerted to...?* 
joq 'oS {maghuH'a'}.  vay' pIm vIjatlh vIneH.

Voragh:
>>I wonder:
>>
>>    'e' wIghuH'a'?
>>    Are we ready for it?  Are we prepared for it?

lay'SIv:
>I used {ma-} on {ghuH} to specifically say no object.  Is that not valid?

That was exactly my point:  I don't think we can use this verb without an 
object, expressed or not.  Notice the prepositions are included in the 
gloss - "prepare for, be alerted to" - implying an object.  {ghuH} has been 
used four times, *always* with an object:

   may' yIghuH!
   Battle Alert! [i.e. "Prepare for battle"] ST3

   tlhIngan quv DatIchDI' Seng yIghuH.
   When you insult a Klingon's honor, prepare for trouble. TKW

   ropyaH yIghuHmoH!
   [Alert sick bay! (untranslated)] ST6

lS:  I don't think this one counts as {ghuH} with an object, because the 
{-moH} requires an object.

   Heghpu'bogh latlhpu' ghuHmoH bey.  ghoS tlhIngan SuvwI' maq.
   This yell...serves to warn the other dead that a Klingon warrior
   is coming. S31

Remember, too, that we have the two suffixes {-beH} "ready, set up 
(devices)" and {-rup} "ready, prepared (beings):

   There is, it should be noted, a verb {ghuS} which means "to be
   prepared to launch or project (something)". This verb never takes
   the subject {-rup}. It is used primarily in reference to torpedoes
   ... In most other instances of preparedness, however, {-rup} is
   required. (TKD 36f)

...

In short, I don't think we can say just "I am ready" or "Are we ready?" by 
itself.  Klingon forces you to say what you're ready/prepared/alerted for: 
either a noun (used with {ghuH}) or a verb (used with {-rup} or 
{-beH}).  

lS: But {ghuH} is not a passive or state "be ready for, be prepared for".  
The object seems to be an event.  So how does one indicate the object or person 
which is being readied for the event?

IOW, it may be as wrong to use {ghuH} with the no-object prefixes 
as it would be to use {Qong} "sleep" with the object prefixes (e.g. 
*{wIQong} "we sleep it/her/him").

>> >wa' nem loghDaq SalmeH chaH, be'pu' wa'DIch wIv *China* logh woQ.
>>
>>Clever use of {Sal} "ascend", but I would have added {-moH}: *{SalmoH}
>>"cause to ascend, launch".
>
>But it's the women who are ascending: "in order that they (the women) 
>ascend into space".

Ah, I see it now.

>The women aren't causing something else to ascend.

No, but the {*China* logh woQ} is causing them to ascend.  I must have read 
this as:

   loghDaq SalmeH, be'pu' wa'DIch wIv *China* logh woQ.
   The China Space Authority chose the first women to launch (them) into 
space.

In which case, {-moH} is needed:

   loghDaq SalmoHmeH, be'pu' wa'DIch wIv *China* logh tum.
   The China Space Agency chose the first women to launch (them) into space.

lS:  This still doesn't feel right.  (BTW, you translated {Sal} as "launch".  
Maybe that's why you think there should be a {-moH}.)  The agency (we'll call 
it that) isn't causing (i.e. forcing or coercing) the women to go up.  And 
it's not physically lifting them up.  It's allowing them to or providing them 
the opportunity to go up.  In what kind of situation would {Sal} be used without 
{-moH}?  Levitation, climbing up a hill, a balloon floating up into the sky?  
When would {Sal} without {-moH} NOT be used?  Whenever a vehicle is used?

(I still think {tum} "agency" works better, though!)

lS: jIQochbe'.  *NASA* rurlaw' {muDDaq loghDaq joq puvmeH Sep tum}.


-- 
Voragh

lS: lay'tel SIvten

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